By what measure is a (hu)man?: On mutants and vampires...

[Val]

This is something I've been thinking over. This especially is something to consider for those that get the AI role, in that what sense a human is and isn't.

If your laws are overridden it's subject to change, but we're going by the standard definitions of it.

Here's the breakdown...
A - Humans: Anyone who isn't in any of the other categories. Wizards are magical humans, just to clarify.
B - Non-humans: Synthetics (AI, Cyborgs), Changelings, Animals (monkeys, dogs, cats), spirit
C - Ambiguous: Lizardmen (half-human mutant), Vampires (undead), zombies (ditto), cluwne

While everyone is usually in agreement with category A and B, C is what causes headaches.

Humans that get the hulk mutation are still human, because they just happen to be humans with a genetic mutation. Same goes if they get genetic mutations of other superpowers or disabilities.

Humans that get the lizard mutation are so mutated that they changed species and are anthropomorphic half-human half-lizard hybrids. Therefore, they're not human. At least not wholly. How is this handled?

Then we have vampires.

By traditional vampire lore, a vampire is a human that was cursed to be a vampire through black magic or otherwise became a vampire by being bitten by one. The point here being that in nearly all incidences of legend, the vampire in question was a dead person who was brought back to life through some ritual as a vampire, in one way or another.

I don't know what the space vampires in SS13 are, but if they fall under traditional, they are technically undead and therefore in the same class as zombies and possibly spirits. Undead - can we say that they're human, if only because they have human shape?

Usually when asked about whether someone is human, there are tests one can do. For example, human blood does not squeal when heated, nor are humans harmed by merely standing in the chapel. Asking a potential changeling/vampire to do this as an AI is stupid.

It's stupid because you may accuse someone who isn't either to waste their time and essentially have the crew come out looking for them, which may bring them to harm. And also because no smart player who is one of those things is actually going to let themselves be found out by you or the crew.

So then, how does one discover and deal with these things? Both as the AI and as a human?

[epicdwarf]

Civil rights for lizard men now!

[AdenAbrafOfTheO]

Undead are humans. I've had an admin tell me this before. Dying doesn't disqualify you from all the rights a living human has.

[FrontlineAcrobat4]

Undead are humans. I've had an admin tell me this before. Dying doesn't disqualify you from all the rights a living human has.

So that makes Vampires Semi-human?

[AdenAbrafOfTheO]

No, they are entirely human.

[FrontlineAcrobat4]

Ah ok

[Kaet]

I've asked an admin about a vampires humanity and had him tell me he wasnt human.
Seems more people lately has said they are human though.
But if they're human, does that mean plain old zombies are also human?

[AngriestIBM]

I've always stood by vampires and zombies being human, but dead humans. Nothing you can do can harm somebody who's already dead.

[Shoddy]

I've always stood by vampires and zombies being human, but dead humans. Nothing you can do can harm somebody who's already dead.

Can you really say that a either virus possessed or voodoo created shambling inanimate corpse with a lust for flesh and brains a human? it is a rather finicky thing and i think that this is one of those things where you interpret this however you want, is a dead being a human or not? you decide.

Although i would like it better if we could just get an official list of what is and isn't human.
PS: i think when it comes down to it, any cyborg is going to bash the zombie that is trying to eat someone's brains as a spur of the moment decision.

[Ebumwell]

75% of category C issues can be solved if people didn't get murder hungry as soon as something isn't human. The AI-side issues fall one way anyways, so what's the hublub. If the crew just doesn't murder 99% of ambiguous things, there would be no problem.

Kil al da chungelinges tey ar greef

[Cogwerks]

I've always stood by vampires and zombies being human, but dead humans. Nothing you can do can harm somebody who's already dead.

Yeah, that's my take on it. Nothin' wrong with borgs or the AI harming a zombie or vampire, but they'd better be goddamn sure it's a vampire.

[DrMelon]

By what measure is a human?

Merely nothing so much as a poor amassment of secretive notions.


Verily! I have conversed overmuch. Suffer under my attack!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMTizJemHO8&t=33s

[WalrusJones]

Well. I suppose cyborgs can murder women at will if their laws state man.

(naturally, I am kidding.)

[Winterous]

I've always stood by vampires and zombies being human, but dead humans. Nothing you can do can harm somebody who's already dead.

I very much disagree with this, and I think it's extremely important to have an official ruling.
They're humans, they're OBVIOUSLY humans, but the matter of whether or not they can be harmed is very much less clear.

Wikitionary defines 'harm' as...
1. Injury; hurt; damage; detriment; misfortune.
2. That which causes injury, damage, or loss.

Now obviously we can't consider damage to a corpse to violate law 1, because otherwise the AI must take great pains to completely prevent decay in a body, and that's just ridiculous.

However vampires are undoubtedly SENTIENT beings, and I'm not even sure if they're dead; has anyone ever measured the body temperature of a vampire? The med-scanner tells you temperature, are vampires colder than normal?
If vampires have a regular human body temperature, then I don't think they can be considered dead at all; how do we define death, anyway?

Traditionally death is defined as a stopped heart, and if a vampire's body temperature is normal then clearly their heart HAS NOT STOPPED, because blood circulation is how heat is distributed throughout the body.
Additionally, injecting drugs works on vampires, how can the drug circulate around their body if they have no pulse? Furthermore, vampires can suffocate, meaning they require oxygen, meaning blood is distributing oxygen around their body, preventing cell death.

I think it is overwhelmingly clear that vampires are in fact living beings, otherwise they would be immune to suffocation, have low body temperature, and would constantly be in a state of rotting; this is of course if they don't have a completely alien physiology, in which case they are certainly not human, and a health scanner would pick this up easily.

So vampires, dead or not, are able to feel pain, able to experience emotion, and since they are sentient beings, able to be injured.


Either vampires are human, and anyone who says they can't be harmed is absolutely wrong, or vampires are not human and the game doesn't make sense because they would have been found out by now.


Now zombies are another matter entirely, they're obviously not alive, but we have no ideas about their psychology, or by what nature they are animated.
Are they animate in and of themselves, or are they animated by an outside force? It's an important distinction between a human being moving by themself, or a human corpse being used as a puppet.

I think the most reasonable assumption (since any non-telesci zombies are wizard-made or void-possessed) is that they are animated by an outside force, and as such there's no reason to consider they might be sentient, and can therefore not be harmed.



So can we PLEASE get a ruling by the admins about this?
I think it's clear that vampires are living, but ultimately it's you guys' decision, it's a point of controversy every time it comes up in game, and often vampires will get screwed over by an AI not having a definite reference for whether they're human.

[Winterous]

Also first post on the new forums, hi again!