The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS

[Mageziya]

This massive debate over how to treat traitor's is just weird. The rules basically state that traitors can kill anyone and anyone can kill traitors, no mercy is required. People get upset when they die, that's how it's always been, but attempting to artificially impose "fun" because someone got caught "too early" just tends to frustrate things.

What's even weirder to this whole mess is that the reverse is starting to become true. The other day I saw someone literally complain, "Wizards that murder people are terrible," and have seen several times before, "Lings that eat conscious people instead of braindeads and monkeys are lame," and "murderboning traitors are shit." This problem has become ingrained in our culture. It's almost like a form of "anti-RP," where people will turn a blind eye to the most blatant of things or be upset with antags performing their functions in the name of "fun."

[BaneOfGiygas]

The reason behind the disdain for murderboning is that, not only is there very little creativity or imagination in it, but having someone barge in, shoot you to death, and throw your corpse out of an airlock is not fun. Maybe for the traitor, but not for the people being shot.

The purpose of an antagonist is not to brutally murder everyone as much as possible. They CAN do so, but they are under no obligation to do so. The purpose of the antagonist is to provide meaningful opposition to the station to make rounds challenging, unique, and fun. A round where all of the antagonists are dead gets boring fast, and a round filled with dead corpses, a choice few survivors, and the antagonist(s) holding a monopoly on the station also gets boring fast. There must be balance.

Murder is quick, efficient, and simple, but runs the risk of making things really dull and boring due to the ratio of dead people to alive people. There are many better ways to deal with the crew as an antagonist, and there are many better ways to deal with antagonists.

[BaneOfGiygas]

A quick addendum to the above: Sometimes, antagonists actually are tasked with murdering everyone as much as possible, but it's the manner in which the murders happen that splits the reactionary line. Shooting someone with a gun is generic, asking them if they want to buy a gun and shooting them if they decline from across the table is more entertaining. If you're going to go on a massacre, at least make sure that there's spectacle to it. If you manage to make the person you killed laugh or marvel at the brilliance of your convoluted plan or commend you for a good fight, those are signs of an effective and enjoyable antagonist. Be unique, creative, and memorable.

[Ed Venture]

The term murderboning is fucking dumb stop using. Also Antags can do whatever they want. It's pointless in trying to impose your own play-style on to others, most of the time if someone is rampaging it gets broadcast over the radio by others. Pay attention to the radio and get ready to fight him at some point. If your sick of rampagers then come down on them hard. Admins used to say something along the lines "If your sick of rampagers then play security and stop them" this was back when hardly anyone played security. Now alot of people play security and let rampagers of all things off easy (granted I was one of those people in most cases). Nine times out of ten if I roll traitor I am going to rampage, if I am Security and I catch a rampager I am most likely going to toss him out a airlock.

[Roomba]

This massive debate over how to treat traitor's is just weird. The rules basically state that traitors can kill anyone and anyone can kill traitors, no mercy is required. People get upset when they die, that's how it's always been, but attempting to artificially impose "fun" because someone got caught "too early" just tends to frustrate things.

What's even weirder to this whole mess is that the reverse is starting to become true. The other day I saw someone literally complain, "Wizards that murder people are terrible," and have seen several times before, "Lings that eat conscious people instead of braindeads and monkeys are lame," and "murderboning traitors are shit." This problem has become ingrained in our culture. It's almost like a form of "anti-RP," where people will turn a blind eye to the most blatant of things or be upset with antags performing their functions in the name of "fun."

I've never really heard those arguments except by salty people grumping in deadchat, which isn't necessarily the best representative sample.

Also while killing bad dudes isn't a bannable offense, sec has also been encouraged to give hard looks at vigilantes crowing about their murders, so it's not entirely a consequence-free act.

[BaneOfGiygas]

Upon further consideration, I think it's a matter of personal opinion that won't ever really be solved. I personally detest it and other people might as well, some other people won't see what the big deal is. I think I ended up barreling down the tracks on the dogmatic opinion train as I got into my post, and I apologize for that. We should probably agree to disagree on the matter lest we start derailing the thread again.

[Chike101]

I think the real problem we have is kinda obvious but nobody's realized it.

The Station has no set rules for crime and punishment except those done in the spur of the moment.

What we could do to alleviate this is write up an official book of law with set times and stuff, instead of sec engorging in mob justice.

[Sundance]

I don't think there should be a complete rule-set because when you have a rule-set it puts security in a bad mindset. I also don't think ANYONE would agree on set times for B&E (I would mediate instead of arresting, some might and I wouldn't disagree) or general murder (depends wholly on the murder) or anything for that matter. I'd rather it ambiguous and open to interpretation (and argument).
Something I wrote on the wiki:
http://wiki.ss13.co/Security_Officer#Levels_of_Trouble
was actually discussed sometime back and everyone seemed to agree that it was about right. It was adjusted several times. It was based on how much a player is fucking up a round and includes both antagonists and non-antagonists. What I omitted (because again, I thought it is entirely up to the officer discretion) is the actual punishment.

Here's a hair-brained idea:
Why don't HoS's start with a Book of Law in their bag ( instead of you know, those funky trinkets that fill up the bag?)
The book of law is just a bunch of "thou not's" that is configured in player settings (which is unlocked when you become hos)

Beat the prisoners with the book of law akin to the bible! OBEY!
The book of law is entirely optional, but it means that the law is down on paper if the HoS ever exploded into many pieces. It also means the law changes depending on who's hos, and I personally like that idea.

[BaneOfGiygas]

I'm leaning on Sundance's side, here. Having a hard and fast book of law for all instances ever just doesn't feel right. Part of what makes SS13 so entertaining compared to other servers is the relatively smaller list of rules and the simplicity of those rules. Security being improvisational is what makes Goonstaion security what it is.

[Ed Venture]

I'm leaning on Sundance's side, here. Having a hard and fast book of law for all instances ever just doesn't feel right. Part of what makes SS13 so entertaining compared to other servers is the relatively smaller list of rules and the simplicity of those rules. Security being improvisational is what makes Goonstaion security what it is.

Not only that but the wiki gives some great guidelines on the subject.

[Cogwerks]

"Murderbone" is a stupid term from /TG/-Bay communities and if you see people whining about "murderboning" in deadchat, just laugh at them. Traitors can kill whoever the hell they want and if you want to just rampage, go for it, but don't cry about getting your ass kicked by a mob. If certain things are too easy to rampage with against coordinated opposition, that's a balance issue, but if the crew can't be bothered to face a big threat without any attempt at coordination, fuck 'em. Let the bodies stack up.

Rampagers should attract a lot of unwanted opposition. Reports of a dude going on a shotgun rampage in Medbay? Ideally people would coordinate against them. Lock the area down and go in with a plan and backup. There is also nothing wrong with a rampager getting disarmed and blasted by a lucky random passerby or would-be victim. And even then, it's not just the spacker that's specifically the problem - you can rampage with non-traitor lasers just as easily, and that's still a huge threat too.
Mass murder and terrorism are pretty damn big crimes. Vigilantism can also easily cause all sorts of danger and death too, and if you see some botanist decked out in weapons executing the chef, "he's traitor! it's okay!" isn't a thing you should just accept as a guard.

A dude with a fake mustache? Not really a threat. Suspicious, sure, don't just ignore it. Play along. Comment on it. Voice suspicion. Emag? Definitely dangerous contraband. IDEALLY players should treat crimes as crimes and handle them by their severity. I dunno how to emphasize that within the current ruleset or definitions though.

AFAIK the "traitors are fair game" rule wasn't ever really meant to mean "traitor? kill them ASAP." It's supposed to keep whiny traitors from screaming to adminhelp when they lose a fight. If you get outed, caught or killed as a traitor, you fucked up. Deal with it. But it's awesome when people play along and don't remove someone from the round just because they can. If a traitor's new, confused, inept, harmless, and/or cooperative, a lot more fun can come out of keeping them around and alive.

Throwing them out an airlock because they have an emag and traitors are a free kill: boring
Throwing them out an airlock because they emagged the monkey pen or some other minor targets: boring
Throwing them out an airlock because they used contraband to destabilize the hell out of the station: totally cool

[Owlrich]

I can't count how many times I've been murdered by a traitor/changeling and either had it ignored or had been in the process of having my body recovered when the murderer in question told the other pary "oh no he's a traitor don't bother" and then have their word taken. It seems a bit silly to trust anyone who claims a dead body is that of a traitor while being in the same room with it, but it's happened countless times, including with sec. Though I have to say during the past few weeks people seem less gullible.

[BaneOfGiygas]

I personally find it entertaining when antagonists get turned into cyborgs. It seems like poetic justice that people bent on the destruction of the station would end up being essentially forced into service TO that very same station. It's something I've been meaning to take advantage of more often, and it helps the traitor player keep their round going even if it isn't as an antagonist, particularly if it's fairly early into the round anyways.

[Michaellaneous]

I feel it is good to follow a principle - when you are playing sec in general.
Use as much force as the guy that is attacking you. Is he simply punching you? Baton is enough. Is he actually using guns and shit that can kill you? You have the right to use the same amount of force.
To be fair, you don't need to outright kill him, and capturing a bad alive, stripping him and throwing him in the brig is always more fun.

[Huff H Law]

Huh this thread seems remarkably relevant these days.