[MERGED PR] Joining round as observer prevents the RP Respawn Timer from applying

[github_bot]

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About the PR

When joining a round as an observer, unsubscribe the player from the respawn controller so they do not recieve the RP respawn timer. They can still join mid-round via random, admin, and player-initiated spawn events.

Why's this needed?

Discourage meta-gaming on RP from those who observe who is playing before deciding to join.

Testing



Tested normally spawning in and dying shows the respawn time
Tested observing both round-start and mid-round (died->respawn to main menu-> choose observe game)

Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)glowbold
(*)Joining a round as an observer disables your respawn timer.

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[Vulwin_Gilran]

Makes sense to me, if you want to join the game don't observe.

[avanth]

All for this. Makes complete sense to me as well.

[UrsulaMejor]

My main reason for supporting the change:

[Drunkangel]

I personally think it'll be good if wraith jobs can still be joined. As it can be annoying if these jobs can't be filled even with ghosts flying around. I don't think a skeleton commander or plague rat is going to do anything with the information after all.

Aside from that, I think it's a good change. I personally like to observe a lot while eating food or finishing up a conversation or relaxing. And I feel like I'd be lying if I said things I've seen haven't changed how I act/what I specifically join as. Even against my best intentions, it's impossible to make those kind of choices without the information playing a part in it.

When I go to observe, I can just join the other RP server instead of the one I'm watching. And actually got excited because this seems like a nice way for me to start getting to see/know characters on high-pop better which I personally don't play as much. So I'm going to start doing that anyway regardless of this PR. But overall I think it's a good change.

[Cleaverwolf]

Initially I disliked this PR because it goes against how I currently play the game sometimes (Make dinner, eat while observing, respawn). However, after admin explanation of certain troublesome behaviors, and also several people admitting to borderline metagaming behavior, I think this is a change absolutely worth giving a try.
There might be two things to consider though. Wraith, admin and gang pop-ups tend to rely on observers in my experience, so these pop-ups may garner very few players from now on. This ties into my other consideration, this PR will heavily incentivize people not to observe. Whether this will have some grand consequence besides the aforementioned on antag-pops, I don't know, just something to think about.

[virvatuli]

To be clear, this is my opinion and not that of the teams.

I brought about this discussion among the team because I am tired of seeing how normalised metagaming is on the RP servers. I have on multiple occasions (before I came back to active dev and now when I am active again) seen people flat out stating in deadchat or among their friends in LOOC that they intend to spawn in as X role because they see someone else playing or they see a specific antagonist after starting the round in observe mode. This is not cool, it's the opposite of what SS13 is supposed to be, RP or not, and it's doubly not fair to the antagonists that have a group of people spawn in as Sec because they have metagamed knowledge as an example that I've witnessed myself occur multiple times.

Now you might say "well punish those who are doing it then", however this behaviour is *common and accepted* at this point, and mechanics preventing this kind of gaming the round are needed because it's simply to the point where it's a little ridiculous. If you choose to observe, you are choosing to watch the round, not abusing the ability to see everything dictating how and when you decide to interact with the round. This should have no impact on those who choose to play the round, either from the start or by latejoining, it's specifically changing how "I choose to observe" behaves and bringing it more in line with the way it was originally meant to be.

[Nerkson]

I believe I am overall in favor of this, as several of my worries (Ghost drones, artifact clones) were discussed and ghost drones were allowed in, same as critters. It would be nice to see artifact clones pulling from a larger pool too. The only "downside" I can think of is me feeling too tired to play a round, deciding to observe, and going "holy shit this looks like fun why didn't I join" and kicking myself for it.

I trust that the admins know what they are saying when they say things like "I've seen pervasive and extensive meta gaming and friendship RP going on still", and if we can change that with this then all the better. While probably nowhere near as horrid as the Goon Server 2 Incident, such things should be dealt with quickly before it gets worse.

I know this type of data probably doesn't exist but I am very curious about the percentages of people who observe and join in later versus don't join in at all, and how often people take advantage of the 10 minute respawn timer on RP servers. Are people actually respawning more often than not when they die, or are they exiting the client and going to make a sandwich? Basically I am wondering if respawning/observing are actually serving a useful and used function in game right now, and if they are not then finding a way to change that so it better suits how people want to play.

I wouldn't mind if the afterlife bar got a revamp to be observer-only, with maybe more QOL features added as a result of not being able to respawn. I would love to place bets on who is gonna die next or if the antags will complete their objectives, etc.

[DisturbHerb]

Were the scope of this PR to only include setting DNR and user-initiated respawns as regular job roles, I would more readily accept these changes. Excluding observers from all respawn events seems like it would just reduce the pool of eligible candidates too much.

I also recall us already having tried this before in some way. TM seems warranted.

[Asterion0]

From an almost purely classic player perspective this change seems absolutely unwarranted for the effects it will have on Classic.
Looking at the RP chat in discord this does very much seem warranted, in terms of the respawn/observer cutting, but the whole critter and midrolls thing is 100% going to cause problems on classic for something that seems tacked on to the actual change being made.

It's already a semi-common occurrence for classic to have issues with spawns on gangs/wraith/etc, and making it so your only pool is people you've already killed instead of also observers will make that worse for them. Especially considering there's already a system in place that weighs observers lower than actual ghosts in the spawning pool! Of course there's room for improvement on it, perhaps in making it so that summons will always try to pull a 'proper' ghost instead of an observer, and only choose observers when no ghosts apply for the midroll.
However, in terms of Metagaming (which the discord/admins make clear is the real issue here), there's practically 0 difference between a ghost and observer once you die. Unlike respawns, midrolls are something you CAN'T control, only accept or decline, and there's no difference between a ghost deciding they don't want to play as X midroll due to the state of the round compared to an observer doing so (outside of that the ghost might have less info). Really, this just seems like something done because setting observers to DNR automatically is easier than disabling just respawns for just observers.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I thought observer worked like this already and now I'm disappointed I didn't use it more back in the day cause ghost respawns give you the only interesting roles

I wouldn't mind if the afterlife bar got a revamp to be observer-only, with maybe more QOL features added as a result of not being able to respawn. I would love to place bets on who is gonna die next or if the antags will complete their objectives, etc.

Observer only? Please don't do this. What did ghosts ever do to you to deserve this?

[Skotcher]

I'm for this change. I think it'll be good for the health of the game. I'll admit that I have joined rounds before that I originally did not intend to because of what I saw happening in the round; the circumstances of those rounds are irrelevant. It's metagaming, plain and simple. And I agree with what others have said about how the behavior has become normalized.


I think antag roles that draw from the ghost pool shouldn't be excluded entirely (ex: gangs), but I do think that joining as observer should put you as the literal last choice for any and all antag popups you could be eligible for.

[Emimiyu]

Imo, another idea for compromise. Maybe lock security/command job from respawn selection?

But honestly, I kinda understand if it is gone for good because people abusing the meta. Telesci clause yadda yadda. As long as people still normalizing it and act around how it is "harmless", there is no reason to keep things that can be abused for metagaming.

But maybe not for ghost antag roles? I unno

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Now you might say "well punish those who are doing it then", however this behaviour is *common and accepted* at this point, and mechanics preventing this kind of gaming the round are needed because it's simply to the point where it's a little ridiculous. If you choose to observe, you are choosing to watch the round, not abusing the ability to see everything dictating how and when you decide to interact with the round. This should have no impact on those who choose to play the round, either from the start or by latejoining, it's specifically changing how "I choose to observe" behaves and bringing it more in line with the way it was originally meant to be.

What's stopping the admins who primarily play on RP from banning those people though. I think people will probably stop doing what you don't want them to, if you just drop the banhammer, right?

[Emimiyu]

Now you might say "well punish those who are doing it then", however this behaviour is *common and accepted* at this point, and mechanics preventing this kind of gaming the round are needed because it's simply to the point where it's a little ridiculous. If you choose to observe, you are choosing to watch the round, not abusing the ability to see everything dictating how and when you decide to interact with the round. This should have no impact on those who choose to play the round, either from the start or by latejoining, it's specifically changing how "I choose to observe" behaves and bringing it more in line with the way it was originally meant to be.

What's stopping the admins who primarily play on RP from banning those people though. I think people will probably stop doing what you don't want them to, if you just drop the banhammer, right?

It is kinda one of those ambiguous "How do you even report this" situation. For example, someone latejoin as a doctor because all of their friends are playing meddoc and having their own circle drama. How would you even report it as player, you don't know who are on ghost role? This also seems like one of those things that seem harmless, but once it becomes a habit, it can change the flow of a lot of rounds.

But meh, I am unsure as a player if this is one of the case. I am basing this on one of the pinned message about metagaming on the discord.