The nature of Jailbird crimes

[DisturbHerb]

Herb reviving Jailbird trait discourse again! Hopefully for the better?

See this thread for relevant prior discussion.

I don't intend to discuss wider ranging overhauls to the system, I don't really think I have anything useful to add on top of what's been mentioned before. Just a little thing that's still been irking me.

I don't think we should be writing off Jailbird charges because they happened "off-station" or they're outside our scope. They're in our records system, they've been set to arrest on our system, our department is tasked with dealing with them.

This does not mean that Jailbird charges should be chased to the ends of the earth every single time. They didn't actually "happen" in an OOC sense, we were gonna need to triage them out anyway because they're not as impactful on the course of the round. It doesn't mean we can't roleplay them as a system glitch or a mistake or whatever. I've taken to putting them on bail pending a trial if there isn't a lot of drive to push the scenario further. I just think it doesn't make sense that we can write them off as not our problem IC when we get wanted posters printed and records data changed with each character.

The impact of a cultural change like this, honestly? I don't think it amounts to all that much. It could be a pet peeve overblown. Dunno!

[Zhail]

When you take "Was it something I said?", you have to deal with small robots messing with you the whole round. When you take "career alcoholic", you have to deal with permanent speech slurring. But when you take "jailbird", all you have to do is talk to security for a few seconds? It doesn't make sense.

I like this. I think if you take a trait, you should have to deal with a real consequence, and being set to arrest until you can walk to security to be set off immediately isn't good enough. If you're set to arrest, you should be arrested.

[Violetsaber]

Honestly yeah i agree, traits should have an actual effect. I think the best way to "handle" jailbird with my mindset at the moment is to arrest those with it, as it is literally the "you should be in jail" trait. Arrest, banter and 30 sec in brig seems good in my book. If people use this as an excuse to self antag in some twisted sense of "escalation" then simply f1. If people don't like being arrested for having jailbird they'll probably stop using the trait or if they find it fun to say hi to stir stir, they'll keep it

[Cleaverwolf]

I'm content with jailbird being removed all together. It seems like it causes more problems than interesting interactions. I'm not sure changing the attitude towards jailbird would effectively work, since part of the problem is that people who are new(er) to the game tend to take things too far on either side.
Ex: new officer chasing a jailbird the entire shift, new player jailbird spending their whole shift evading security
There was already a change to make this less of a problem by making jailbird cost a point, but I still have seen aforementioned behavior even after the fact.

[DisturbHerb]

The intended scope of the original post was narrowed down to only the reasons why Jailbirds are written off as they are. Not to say that topics beyond that shouldn't be discussed, just that they're probably better suited to more focused threads.

[CalliopeSoups]

Personally as a frequent crime player I am happy when security so much as actually reads out my crimes, let alone DO something about it. It's funny and I pick the trait to be messed with.

If I would do anything I'd add some sort of disclaimer to taking jailbird that says the trait is for being messed with not the other way around. That and ahelpin which I believe should be enough unless an admin goes on record saying they spend too much time and energy on jailbirds.

[Skotcher]

In my experience of playing sec, I've had good experiences with those with Jailbird. I've taken people in, hyped up or downplayed the severity of the crime for comedic effect, and generally it's given me a distraction at the start of a sec shift.

At times, though, I feel like the meta knowledge of the trait means that people naturally end up clearing it without interaction with the player who took Jailbird. I can recall several instances of, "Why is x set to arrest?" "It says here they did y" "Ah, that's off station (or some similar excuse). Go ahead and clear it". Weirdly enough, a more coordinated and communicative sec team seems more likely to clear the arrest status.

The core issue to me seems to be that the trait requires acknowledging its existence while simultaneously disregarding its long term implications. On RP, if we arrested someone, I'd likely have them set to released afterwards; it provides informational clarity on who we're investigating/chasing. Setting jailbirds to arrest & released ends up making informational clutter. This wouldn't be so bad if the crimes were always minor, but iirc, some crimes can be quite severe like murder or mass murder, and on RP (at least on lowpop), those kinds of crimes could get you exiled/executed.

Personally, I think it would be funny to be exiled/executed because of the trait. Execution would sour my mood if I rolled antag, but then, I suppose that's the danger of the trait. I don't think many others would find it funny or fun, though.

I agree with Calliope that a disclaimer could be useful, especially for RP. Agreeing to take the trait means agreeing to abide by the consequences of the crimes the trait generates. If the crimes would normally get you exiled, then you get exiled.

The trait seems like it could do with pruning of the crimes, or at least a whitelist/blacklist for RP vs. Classic. No major crimes for RP seems like a fine compromise. Not sure how to address security just auto-removing the tag. Could be funny if the only way to remove the tag was to send em through a brig chute? Seems like a bit of a coding headache, though. Maybe some elements of sec culture might need to adjust, such as being more ready to arrest those with the flag without as much questioning.

[Kotlol]

Jailbird more often then not is a dissapointment / annoyance for Sec or jailbirds alike.

I say I am fine with removing it...

I will say I rather have a "JAILBIRD" Job. Someone who's job is to be trapped in the brig or should be brigged/stuck in the brig for objective reasons.
And antags have a reason to break out, as the Jailbird's job is to escape and avoid being shipped to escape.

It's not a good trait. I once roleplayed a jailbird aka somoene who was suppose to stay in jail all shfit long awaiting trial. I LOOC'd with sec what I wanted and what I am fine with and it was fun... till an engineer decided to rebuild my cell into a club cause... I was permanently brigged (might been an antag).
IT WAS HILARIOUS how the station was being blown up outside, yet I was safe in the brig having a party and getting drunk.
"CRIME PAYS!"

If we want to keep it, it needs changing like: "Jailbird level 1, jailbird level 2, jailbird level 3, Freebird"

Level 1 being nuisances wich security has to ticket you/fine you.
Level 2 being security has to brig you for 10 mins due to a crime you commited.
Level 3 being security may permabrig/execute/exile you.
And Freebird status being: "You accepted that anyone can kill you without any laws broken."

So yea... that's an idea.. but overal as it is.. it's an annoyance.

[DisturbHerb]

I'm glad to see that people are still passionate about what to do with Jailbird as a whole, but for the sake of keeping the thread from rehashing every prior discussion on the matter we've had before, I would really appreciate a continued focus on the cultural implications of my original topic. Thanks everybody!

[ju45he]

Most of the time I either ticket/fine/ignore jailbirds because I never see RP from putting someone in the brig. I can't really even interogate them because the crime didn't actually happen so there's no evidence and we don't have any of the details of the crime so the jailbird can just make up whatever they want about it and we have no reason to believe them.

It doesn't need an overhaul, it should just be removed and people should be allowed to do a little bit of crime here and there when the antags aren't doing enough to make the round interesting.

[DisturbHerb]

I don't want to discuss the removal of Jailbird in the scope of this thread. I want to remain focused on the original topic: on how we handle the current (current!) situation from a cultural standpoint. I think talking about removals or mechanical changes to how Jailbird works right now (as in applying crimes that didn't happen to characters) detracts from the point I really want to make.

[Kotlol]

From a cultural standpoint: It's just "Was it something I said" but with extra steps.

It's annoying, it doesn't add anything interresting, most people who have it also expect you to waver away their crimes.
Even I have to waver them away since I gotta focus on getting antags out of the way.
People will just get arrest removed on RP. And I never seen anyone trying to follow it up cept ONCE and even that wasn't as fun cause we have it in our heads to just waver out of station crimes to get things going.

The only people who take it are people trying out traits.. but most.. avoid it since it gives no benefits or fun factors.
I do not know how it goes on classic, but I feel like when somoene rolls Jailbird it's OBIVIOUS.
As it can be "Farting on the captain" to "Embezzling funds." One is just annoying and the other is an actual crime.
So the random element for roleplaying also messes with the fun factor. Imagine if I want to be jailbird and a heavy criminal who wants to get arrested but...
My crime is: "Slipping Head of Security" ....Wow....I'll get a ticket for that.

All in all I think the trait from a culture point is just the same: "Annoying"
Those who use it once won't use it again. Security finds it annoying. It is litterly a 5 minute interaction at best going: "Ooh you are jailbird, moving on."

[EightVIII]

Jailbird is one of those things which, like so many other traits and mechanics, presents a unique opportunity for roleplay that I simply do not see being capitalised upon or engaged with frequently enough. This is the kind of change that I, personally, would like to see; there's a lot that could be said about it from a purely mechanical perspective, but I feel as though the problem lies more in the roleplaying aspect than anything else.

Players who pick Jailbird do so because they are (hopefully) aware of its implications. To simply see their listed crimes and refusing to engage with them in an even remotely meaningful way — such as by simply removing their arrest flag or handing them a vague, non-descript ticket for 'off-station crimes' — is, speaking bluntly, lazy. It would be nice to see more engagement between Security players and those who have picked the Jailbird trait on the specifics of the crime, to foster some interesting and potentially amusing moments, and to play in to the trait a little bit more when time allows.

That last part is one of the key parts, I feel. It isn't always feasible to go after those with the Jailbird trait, particularly on highpop, when there are more pressing matters. Being able to prioritise which tasks and cases need to be dealt with first is one of the core components of playing Security, but that doesn't mean that the lesser of two evils gets outright ignored or forgotten about once things calm down; unfortunately, Jailbird often does. This is the kind of change of approach that I would like to see.

I do think that some of the confusion comes from the severity of some of the crimes generated from Jailbird, and that can make it difficult. 'Riding a segway into the Captain' is an opportunity for some goofing around and light-hearted roleplay. 'Murder', however? Not so much. In that way, I don't think that much meaningful cultural change within the bounds of roleplay will happen without some slight mechanical change. Maybe just keep the trait exclusively to petty crimes?

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but if something is there that offers an opportunity for roleplay, on a roleplay server no less, it shouldn't just be dismissively hand-waved away. Jailbird can be fun, and I don't think it's the trait itself that makes it boring or frustrating to deal with; it's the approach that players take.

[Nerkson]

I will try to provide different feedback than the one I provided in the previous thread then.

This does not mean that Jailbird charges should be chased to the ends of the earth every single time. They didn't actually "happen" in an OOC sense, we were gonna need to triage them out anyway because they're not as impactful on the course of the round. It doesn't mean we can't roleplay them as a system glitch or a mistake or whatever. I've taken to putting them on bail pending a trial if there isn't a lot of drive to push the scenario further. I just think it doesn't make sense that we can write them off as not our problem IC when we get wanted posters printed and records data changed with each character.

I just want the alarms to end at a certain point. 

Everyone and their mother can get to a level 4 contra alert ridiculously easy and medbay becomes a walking siren eventually. Underage drinkers, the clown, and dabbers distract the securitrons for so long that they often get stuck in a pathing error and I have to find the bot and shove them back to a normal area so they can move. 

Triage the alerts, sure. But if its round start then we can process a jailbird for a crime in 3 or 4 minutes and then its done for the round - it still doesn't feel especially impactful or roleplay worthy. To me it doesn't feel like enough.

[SalmonidJester]

I enjoy jailbird as it currently is, I pick it on my research character because they're generally shenanigan-driven and I can make a improv story out of whatever crimes it auto-generates. On my security character, I enjoy jailbirds as a round-start thing to handle in person, generally leaning torwards a fine and jailtime if they run; it's great to have at least something related to your job as security within the first 30 minutes since that's the "slow" part of the shift most times.

The issue I have is really just like whats already been said about some people who play security de-prioritizing them way too much when there's nothing else to really do at the moment, and maybe the issue of setting off scanners/securitrons being too much. Possibly making them detain status and not arrest status would work, allowing security to go question them whenever, and the "arrest warrants" changed to "suspect notices" or something would be better since then you have way more leeway in how the crimes are processed, since you can roleplay like you were simply there at the time and were just ONE of the possible suspects. It still allows for bullshittery since you can allude or admit to the fact you DID do the crimes if you'd like, and make it reasonable for security to arrest/fine you, but doesn't make it as urgent as a active arrest warrant if things need to be dealt with.

Securitrons and alarms not going off would hopefully also de-incentivize people who auto-clear the warrants since, why would you at that point, there's nothing being disrupted really by someone on detain status. If you wanna have the securitrons pissed off there's now a specific trait that makes robots pissed off lol.