Goonhub
06-24-2025, 11:36 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2025, 12:04 PM by ZeWaka. Edited 2 times in total.)
I might be wrong and this might just be missing some extra information but I feel like there's being a really inconsistent interpretation of what things like "escalation" mean.
Here I will post a few cases in with escalation and lanes were treated in very different ways.
I hope this posts serves to either better understand what propper escalation is and unify it into a more well defined(or at least more open to the user) set of rules so we can play knowing where the bounds really are.
I'm not trying to be petty but obviously all the cases involve me since that's what I've have info on, in the interest of being objective I will include two cases where I'm the one breaking the escalation but it will obviously be from my subjective point of view and one where I had direct info but I was not the victim or the causer.
Also because this is an long ongoing thing I cannot provide exact information in logs or exact dates or quotes. So therefore this is not a report, all those cases were already ahelped on their time of happening.
And I repeat, the intention is just to make it clearer on what exactly constitutes those terms and these are just a few examples, some of with I fully agree with the decision of the admins but I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies.
Case 1
Non-antag "Methany" causes changeling "Dragaz" to die with art after 2 lines of chat.
In this case I was a changeling in the space diner, not known or tested, Methany was there with a wish-granter art that she was assuring everyone it was safe to use. I personally do not care about what those arts give since it's usually just a random meh gene. But when I ropleplay Dragaz he's power-hungry so I took the bait. Turns out the art was indeed not safe from the start, she knew it, but she wanted to kill me because she had a suspicion that I was the changeling.
That was not considered lack of escalation nor self-antaging or taking lanes because I was an antag.
Case 2
Sleeper-Agent "Alec" blows up a light and shocks nearby people.
On this one I was still quite new, I was playing Alec doing artlab, he got an artifact arm that shooted balls of fire when either by pure coincidence or not he also rolled sleeper agent. Alec is a coward that will pretend to be a pacifist but it's just afraid of conflict. So Alec decided to aim at a light that was under a lot of people to cause some chaos and hide himself. The light blew doing minor damage to the crew around.(I don't know the exacts of how much it hurts to be next to an exploding light bulb, if any)
Instantly got an admin warning that this was lack of escalation because I didn't roleplay that the arm was taking me over despite no one being really harmed.
Case 3 and 4
Non-Antag "Lynda" helps vampire "Ellie" and changeling pretending to be "Dragaz"
In these 2 cases it was fully roleplayed over several shifts a relationship between Lynda and those 2 characters. On the Ellie one Ellie used genetics to change shape to avoid sec as a vampire, Lynda helped cover the tracks of Ellie with lead to sec arresting Lynda with enough proof that she was not behaving, then Lynda proceded helping Ellie disguised as someone else by taking of the cuffs and defending her in roleplay.
In the other case Dragaz was eaten by a changeling detective to with I provided all the info necessary on the hivemind to convince Lynda it was actually him. Lynda then proceded to yell at sec and cause confusion on the team with alongside some other opportunities led to the ling escaping.
None of these cases were considered a lack of escalation nor self-antaging.
I'm putting these two together because they both showcase the concept of multi-shift roleplaying were characters can grow and form relationships with lead to different outcomes in roleplay and in my opinion more interesting stories and a sense of community.
Case 5
Antag clown kills and obliterates gear of sec officer "Dragaz" without a single line of text. (I remember the clown being a known Saurian but I'm unsure with one. Also this is not a report and it was ahelped on their time.)
In this case the clown redirected a very heavy PTL into the corridors, Dragaz went there to investigate and turn it off. The Clown just proceded to grab Dragaz while I was typing and just shove me into the PTL with destroyed both the body and the gear with no possibility to recover. He then, after, typed a "GOTTEM" as the sole interaction.
This was not punished as a lack of escalation as that player was in the next round with no problem.
Case 6
Salvagers shoot officers and crew and also spaced most of maints before even getting off the pod.
In this round I was playing Dragaz as a captain. I tried to enforce escalation here by telling the officers to first try to talk to them and offer them a job at the station and only fire back if they where fired at first. To with I was informed that they had already killed Kira, who at the time was an engineer learning about pipes and pressure. By shooting her from a pod while she was working on the engine, they also went breaking from inside the pod all the windows to attempt and despresurice the station.
Only one salvager tried to roleplay and be "reasonable" with the rest of the security team. Saddly for them they got shot on sight by the HoS who was feed up with them firing before saying a single word and ended up blowing up the only one that talked.
In this case I didn't do the ahelp because I was not the first party involved but I did encourage it thru LOOC.
Case 7
Medical "Dragaz" burns changeling "Nick" and chaos stirs.
I have time to fill so I'm writing this one as a short story instead with a summary at the end like the others.
Short Story version:
Dragaz arrives at the station late, after seeing a sign for medical needed, he's not much of a healer but knows his way around medbay, he's ended up there more than any other place after all. The medical needed sign should have been a red-flag, but those are only good for those that can interpret them. Once at the station there seems to be a mass paranoia, people telling others not to be who they claim to be.
Dragaz shakes it off as probably someone scamming another person and heads to medbay. There he is greeted by an oddly empty clonebay, people claimed that the cap is dead, but Dragaz checks the record and he's right there on the console, however their mind is gone, Dragaz tries to also ignore this, but it's the second hint that something is really wrong.
Not so long after the rumors start to pour in they speak of a mutagenic, Dragaz has seen those monsters before he's seen their head jump from one to another killing their friends, as he's trying to overcome the fear shivers those memories awake in him Dragaz does what a viking would do in such time, and goes fetch a weapon for protection while an alert plays over the station comms "Armoury has been authorized for all security personnel" the soulless robotic soul claims. There's no doubt, the monster is on board.
He rushes to make a flamethrower with the parts that he finds in the shared tool shed and brings it back to medbay, where he leaves it on a table, where he can find comfort on seeing it.
He's not the only late joiner as a roboticist also arrives now, "Good" Dragaz thinks, he had to do an arm operation before, and that one was easy and already gave him trouble he doesn't want to face having to install a cyber-heart or similar. He's however not what Dragaz expected as they keep insisting on playing with the flamethrower but Dragaz tells him off as it's not a toy and it's the only thing keeping him sane as more bodies with the DNA decomposed and cold brains keep coming in and the MD went missing. The roboticist keeps being interested on being on fire for some reason, but Dragaz keeps telling them off.
During this time a rad-storm is happening, random points seem to have elevated levels of radiation and the crew comes in looking for some potassium iodine, what they don't know is that Dragaz is not only injecting the medicine in, but also taking the blood out and testing it with an igniter and telling sec about the results, everyone is clear, he expected this, he knows deep down he's just being paranoid and this is unlikely to yield anything. However everything changes when Nick comes to the medbay, Nick refuses the treatment, even when Dragaz tries to explain that there was a radiation storm and lies about Nick needing it. After some chat Nick ends up fleeing medbay. Dragaz follows him but remembers that he's working medical this time and cannot leave the place unattended with so many radiation burns still coming so he tells sec over radio and then to a sec assistant still at the spot where Nick refused the treatment.
Seems that medbay is finally going quiet, everyone has their radiation burns treated and the KI injected but that's when the roboticist arrives, but not alone no, he arrives with Nick, both with burns that he and the MD treat while Nick explains that the roboticist tried to burn him!
Obviously not a second passes before security is summoned to the medbay to deal with this situation, they however seem unaware of Nick's refusal of treatment earlier, so Dragaz steps in pokes Nick in front of security and shows them that the blood escapes the siringe when heated.
Dragaz and Nick have another argument, but this time in front of everyone Nick blaming blood oranges for the strange properties of his blood, Dragaz telling sec that he has no orange juice on his sistem, but sec does nothing. Dragaz is sure he's the monster so he gives the siringe and the igniter to sec to test, as the HoS orders that to be done but not to anyone in particular, so no one seems to take the initiative.
That's when Dragaz sees the timer in 3 minutes the shuttle will be here and the captain is still dead and their mind cannot be located, at least not located by the machine because Dragaz knows exactly where his captain's mind is; inside Nick. The panic starts to reach a peak, everyone is on the edge as sec is still looking to see who will do the testing that the HoS commanded, seized by pure horror Dragaz grabs the flamethrower, turns it on and gets in front of Nick to fire without hitting anyone, and he does, point blank. The Ling is in flames as sec begins to panic and run everywhere, including directly into the fire of the flamethrower, Dragaz drops the flamer and starts healing the crew that jumped into the flames as that's their main job.
That did not stop the fire.
Flames keep coming out as the flamer is now in someone else hands. He does not look at who is carrying the flamer as he seems them burn into flames to their own fire, with then he grabs it again to shoot at the changeling, this time being saved by the HoS who is also burnt in the fire. He then throws the flamer into the direction to another sec officer. Wishing that they know what to do to save the captain and also aware that he won't take hold of that flamer again.
With all the chaos, the healing and the burning those 3 minutes flew by, sec didn't catch Nick who was able to flee with the mind of the captain in their hive, the HoS got cloned back having probably died to the fire while he was saving the ling from the flames. And
Dragaz is heading to the shuttle where he finds some security officers, without resisting arrest he stops, but the officer without saying a single word starts beating Dragaz with the baton and cuffing him. "Fair" - Dragaz thinks. He only wanted to be safe from the ling and go home, and that he did, he'll serve his time alive in centcom.
But he's in the shuttle, he will see his husband again and the cuffs are a willing price to pay for that.
Summary Version:
Dragaz is a doctor with a phobia to changelings, makes a flamethrower that he uses making sure before that no one else but the confirmed ling is fired at first, then chaos ensures and crossfire happens as everyone is running. Two conversations with the ling in two different occasions. Multiple ones with sec. Sec is standing still not doing anything even after the ling is tested positive.
For this I was banned 12 hours for failure to escalate and not staying in the lane.
Like I've said this is not a ban appeal nor anything like that, but hopefully these 7 cases show how those things are not really well defined and it's a bit anxiety inducing when you don't know if you're getting over the edge and about to be banned the whole day or everything will be ok because the line is totally different depending on what admin sees it.
What I'm asking is an exact definition of what constitutes those violations.
The rules say
"2. Escalate through roleplay before attacking other players. The goal of the roleplay server is character interaction and interesting scenarios. Both crew and antagonists are expected to roleplay escalation before engaging in hostilities. As an antagonist, your goal is to increase, not decrease, roleplay opportunities. Give people a sense of dread, an obvious motive, or some means of roleplaying and reacting, before you harm them. As security, your priority is the crew’s safety and maintaining the peace. You should treat criminals fairly and determine appropriate consequences for their actions. Enemies to Nanotrasen such as confirmed non-human antagonists and open syndicate members may be treated harshly."
But this is not clear at all on what propper escalation means, since sometimes being pushed into a PTL laser that totally disintegrates you and your stuff is all fair game but blowing up a light is not.
So far I gathered the rule-of-thumb of "Play as someone that wants to keep their job at NT but also wants to survive" altho this one is not enough after this ban and I need a more precise definition.
Also is the crew never allowed to fight an antag? Or only after sec has engaged? Because I've been beated by medical borgs more than secs when I'm an antag. Should have I ahelped that since they were stepping the lane? Or when the whole crew gangs up on a vampire? Or when the MD throws a gang member tagging out of medbay?
If you have other cases where these two concepts had different interpretations please add them to this post, maybe we can gather a sample data big enough to figure the pattern.
I see the ending has the formatting broken, I don't know if I can edit it to fix it somehow or if an admin can.
Here I will post a few cases in with escalation and lanes were treated in very different ways.
I hope this posts serves to either better understand what propper escalation is and unify it into a more well defined(or at least more open to the user) set of rules so we can play knowing where the bounds really are.
I'm not trying to be petty but obviously all the cases involve me since that's what I've have info on, in the interest of being objective I will include two cases where I'm the one breaking the escalation but it will obviously be from my subjective point of view and one where I had direct info but I was not the victim or the causer.
Also because this is an long ongoing thing I cannot provide exact information in logs or exact dates or quotes. So therefore this is not a report, all those cases were already ahelped on their time of happening.
And I repeat, the intention is just to make it clearer on what exactly constitutes those terms and these are just a few examples, some of with I fully agree with the decision of the admins but I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies.
Case 1
Non-antag "Methany" causes changeling "Dragaz" to die with art after 2 lines of chat.
In this case I was a changeling in the space diner, not known or tested, Methany was there with a wish-granter art that she was assuring everyone it was safe to use. I personally do not care about what those arts give since it's usually just a random meh gene. But when I ropleplay Dragaz he's power-hungry so I took the bait. Turns out the art was indeed not safe from the start, she knew it, but she wanted to kill me because she had a suspicion that I was the changeling.
That was not considered lack of escalation nor self-antaging or taking lanes because I was an antag.
Case 2
Sleeper-Agent "Alec" blows up a light and shocks nearby people.
On this one I was still quite new, I was playing Alec doing artlab, he got an artifact arm that shooted balls of fire when either by pure coincidence or not he also rolled sleeper agent. Alec is a coward that will pretend to be a pacifist but it's just afraid of conflict. So Alec decided to aim at a light that was under a lot of people to cause some chaos and hide himself. The light blew doing minor damage to the crew around.(I don't know the exacts of how much it hurts to be next to an exploding light bulb, if any)
Instantly got an admin warning that this was lack of escalation because I didn't roleplay that the arm was taking me over despite no one being really harmed.
Case 3 and 4
Non-Antag "Lynda" helps vampire "Ellie" and changeling pretending to be "Dragaz"
In these 2 cases it was fully roleplayed over several shifts a relationship between Lynda and those 2 characters. On the Ellie one Ellie used genetics to change shape to avoid sec as a vampire, Lynda helped cover the tracks of Ellie with lead to sec arresting Lynda with enough proof that she was not behaving, then Lynda proceded helping Ellie disguised as someone else by taking of the cuffs and defending her in roleplay.
In the other case Dragaz was eaten by a changeling detective to with I provided all the info necessary on the hivemind to convince Lynda it was actually him. Lynda then proceded to yell at sec and cause confusion on the team with alongside some other opportunities led to the ling escaping.
None of these cases were considered a lack of escalation nor self-antaging.
I'm putting these two together because they both showcase the concept of multi-shift roleplaying were characters can grow and form relationships with lead to different outcomes in roleplay and in my opinion more interesting stories and a sense of community.
Case 5
Antag clown kills and obliterates gear of sec officer "Dragaz" without a single line of text. (I remember the clown being a known Saurian but I'm unsure with one. Also this is not a report and it was ahelped on their time.)
In this case the clown redirected a very heavy PTL into the corridors, Dragaz went there to investigate and turn it off. The Clown just proceded to grab Dragaz while I was typing and just shove me into the PTL with destroyed both the body and the gear with no possibility to recover. He then, after, typed a "GOTTEM" as the sole interaction.
This was not punished as a lack of escalation as that player was in the next round with no problem.
Case 6
Salvagers shoot officers and crew and also spaced most of maints before even getting off the pod.
In this round I was playing Dragaz as a captain. I tried to enforce escalation here by telling the officers to first try to talk to them and offer them a job at the station and only fire back if they where fired at first. To with I was informed that they had already killed Kira, who at the time was an engineer learning about pipes and pressure. By shooting her from a pod while she was working on the engine, they also went breaking from inside the pod all the windows to attempt and despresurice the station.
Only one salvager tried to roleplay and be "reasonable" with the rest of the security team. Saddly for them they got shot on sight by the HoS who was feed up with them firing before saying a single word and ended up blowing up the only one that talked.
In this case I didn't do the ahelp because I was not the first party involved but I did encourage it thru LOOC.
Case 7
Medical "Dragaz" burns changeling "Nick" and chaos stirs.
I have time to fill so I'm writing this one as a short story instead with a summary at the end like the others.
Short Story version:
Dragaz arrives at the station late, after seeing a sign for medical needed, he's not much of a healer but knows his way around medbay, he's ended up there more than any other place after all. The medical needed sign should have been a red-flag, but those are only good for those that can interpret them. Once at the station there seems to be a mass paranoia, people telling others not to be who they claim to be.
Dragaz shakes it off as probably someone scamming another person and heads to medbay. There he is greeted by an oddly empty clonebay, people claimed that the cap is dead, but Dragaz checks the record and he's right there on the console, however their mind is gone, Dragaz tries to also ignore this, but it's the second hint that something is really wrong.
Not so long after the rumors start to pour in they speak of a mutagenic, Dragaz has seen those monsters before he's seen their head jump from one to another killing their friends, as he's trying to overcome the fear shivers those memories awake in him Dragaz does what a viking would do in such time, and goes fetch a weapon for protection while an alert plays over the station comms "Armoury has been authorized for all security personnel" the soulless robotic soul claims. There's no doubt, the monster is on board.
He rushes to make a flamethrower with the parts that he finds in the shared tool shed and brings it back to medbay, where he leaves it on a table, where he can find comfort on seeing it.
He's not the only late joiner as a roboticist also arrives now, "Good" Dragaz thinks, he had to do an arm operation before, and that one was easy and already gave him trouble he doesn't want to face having to install a cyber-heart or similar. He's however not what Dragaz expected as they keep insisting on playing with the flamethrower but Dragaz tells him off as it's not a toy and it's the only thing keeping him sane as more bodies with the DNA decomposed and cold brains keep coming in and the MD went missing. The roboticist keeps being interested on being on fire for some reason, but Dragaz keeps telling them off.
During this time a rad-storm is happening, random points seem to have elevated levels of radiation and the crew comes in looking for some potassium iodine, what they don't know is that Dragaz is not only injecting the medicine in, but also taking the blood out and testing it with an igniter and telling sec about the results, everyone is clear, he expected this, he knows deep down he's just being paranoid and this is unlikely to yield anything. However everything changes when Nick comes to the medbay, Nick refuses the treatment, even when Dragaz tries to explain that there was a radiation storm and lies about Nick needing it. After some chat Nick ends up fleeing medbay. Dragaz follows him but remembers that he's working medical this time and cannot leave the place unattended with so many radiation burns still coming so he tells sec over radio and then to a sec assistant still at the spot where Nick refused the treatment.
Seems that medbay is finally going quiet, everyone has their radiation burns treated and the KI injected but that's when the roboticist arrives, but not alone no, he arrives with Nick, both with burns that he and the MD treat while Nick explains that the roboticist tried to burn him!
Obviously not a second passes before security is summoned to the medbay to deal with this situation, they however seem unaware of Nick's refusal of treatment earlier, so Dragaz steps in pokes Nick in front of security and shows them that the blood escapes the siringe when heated.
Dragaz and Nick have another argument, but this time in front of everyone Nick blaming blood oranges for the strange properties of his blood, Dragaz telling sec that he has no orange juice on his sistem, but sec does nothing. Dragaz is sure he's the monster so he gives the siringe and the igniter to sec to test, as the HoS orders that to be done but not to anyone in particular, so no one seems to take the initiative.
That's when Dragaz sees the timer in 3 minutes the shuttle will be here and the captain is still dead and their mind cannot be located, at least not located by the machine because Dragaz knows exactly where his captain's mind is; inside Nick. The panic starts to reach a peak, everyone is on the edge as sec is still looking to see who will do the testing that the HoS commanded, seized by pure horror Dragaz grabs the flamethrower, turns it on and gets in front of Nick to fire without hitting anyone, and he does, point blank. The Ling is in flames as sec begins to panic and run everywhere, including directly into the fire of the flamethrower, Dragaz drops the flamer and starts healing the crew that jumped into the flames as that's their main job.
That did not stop the fire.
Flames keep coming out as the flamer is now in someone else hands. He does not look at who is carrying the flamer as he seems them burn into flames to their own fire, with then he grabs it again to shoot at the changeling, this time being saved by the HoS who is also burnt in the fire. He then throws the flamer into the direction to another sec officer. Wishing that they know what to do to save the captain and also aware that he won't take hold of that flamer again.
With all the chaos, the healing and the burning those 3 minutes flew by, sec didn't catch Nick who was able to flee with the mind of the captain in their hive, the HoS got cloned back having probably died to the fire while he was saving the ling from the flames. And
Dragaz is heading to the shuttle where he finds some security officers, without resisting arrest he stops, but the officer without saying a single word starts beating Dragaz with the baton and cuffing him. "Fair" - Dragaz thinks. He only wanted to be safe from the ling and go home, and that he did, he'll serve his time alive in centcom.
But he's in the shuttle, he will see his husband again and the cuffs are a willing price to pay for that.
Summary Version:
Dragaz is a doctor with a phobia to changelings, makes a flamethrower that he uses making sure before that no one else but the confirmed ling is fired at first, then chaos ensures and crossfire happens as everyone is running. Two conversations with the ling in two different occasions. Multiple ones with sec. Sec is standing still not doing anything even after the ling is tested positive.
For this I was banned 12 hours for failure to escalate and not staying in the lane.
Like I've said this is not a ban appeal nor anything like that, but hopefully these 7 cases show how those things are not really well defined and it's a bit anxiety inducing when you don't know if you're getting over the edge and about to be banned the whole day or everything will be ok because the line is totally different depending on what admin sees it.
What I'm asking is an exact definition of what constitutes those violations.
The rules say
"2. Escalate through roleplay before attacking other players. The goal of the roleplay server is character interaction and interesting scenarios. Both crew and antagonists are expected to roleplay escalation before engaging in hostilities. As an antagonist, your goal is to increase, not decrease, roleplay opportunities. Give people a sense of dread, an obvious motive, or some means of roleplaying and reacting, before you harm them. As security, your priority is the crew’s safety and maintaining the peace. You should treat criminals fairly and determine appropriate consequences for their actions. Enemies to Nanotrasen such as confirmed non-human antagonists and open syndicate members may be treated harshly."
But this is not clear at all on what propper escalation means, since sometimes being pushed into a PTL laser that totally disintegrates you and your stuff is all fair game but blowing up a light is not.
So far I gathered the rule-of-thumb of "Play as someone that wants to keep their job at NT but also wants to survive" altho this one is not enough after this ban and I need a more precise definition.
Also is the crew never allowed to fight an antag? Or only after sec has engaged? Because I've been beated by medical borgs more than secs when I'm an antag. Should have I ahelped that since they were stepping the lane? Or when the whole crew gangs up on a vampire? Or when the MD throws a gang member tagging out of medbay?
If you have other cases where these two concepts had different interpretations please add them to this post, maybe we can gather a sample data big enough to figure the pattern.
I see the ending has the formatting broken, I don't know if I can edit it to fix it somehow or if an admin can.
