HoP and Detective Mindprotection

[JORJ949]

I personally believe that the HoP and detective being mindhackable gives you too much bang for your syndicate bucks and result in these jobs being mindhacked far more than the rest of the crew. The HoP comes with all access and the detective comes with a good gun, security access and security radio. Security assistants are also mindhackable but this never happens as the detective is just a straight up better option as it comes with a gun. I still think both of these should be able to be antag but them being mindhackable just makes it far to easy to obtain powerful gear early on with a single click and 3TC. I think these should receive mind protection implants but not ones that send the health alert (I am going to PR making these separate implants regardless)

The mindhack is still a valuable item without being able to mindhack these two as it still gives you a friend and access to additional tools outside of your department, just not EVERY department or a stun/lethal gun. If anything it might shake up the meta a bit so you don't see most mindhacks used on the same two jobs over and over.

[LeahTheTech]

I disagree, having a couple of high value targets that don't give you a free rampage (ala secoff) is good. It also makes those jobs less trusted overall, which especially in the case of the detective very much fits the theme.
I was the one that added mind protection implants to security and I was very clear at the time that this was a specific measure to counter the constant boring rampages one-click mindhacked security inevitably causes and wasn't going to lead to a cascade effect of giving whoever is currently the most valuable target protection until mindhacks become useless. There's always going to be a "best" option for who to mindhack and that's okay, it won't always be the best in the moment or for the specific situation you have planned.

[JORJ949]

I disagree, having a couple of high value targets that don't give you a free rampage (ala secoff) is good. It also makes those jobs less trusted overall, which especially in the case of the detective very much fits the theme.
I was the one that added mind protection implants to security and I was very clear at the time that this was a specific measure to counter the constant boring rampages one-click mindhacked security inevitably causes and wasn't going to lead to a cascade effect of giving whoever is currently the most valuable target protection until mindhacks become useless. There's always going to be a "best" option for who to mindhack and that's okay, it won't always be the best in the moment or for the specific situation you have planned.

There are still high value targets that give you access to things you might need such as any other head of staff for access to their department from their special ID computer or a security assistant for that someone in security, or a scientist for explosives; just no HoP for every department, every access, AND the second in command; or detective for an easy friend with a gun to go kill people with. Mindhack is still a very powerful item without these roles being hackable but this would require more thinking than "oh I want to go kill people better mindhack the detective!" or "oh I want access to somewhere better mindhack the HoP!" I agree there should be high priority targets and that thats a good thing but these are just far too valuable and are mindhacked far too much right now, I am reminded of the one image of a detective with THREE mindhack implants in them at the same time, THREE. The detective in my opinion has a stronger capability to rampage than an officer as they have both stun and lethal rounds while also having access to handcuffs, similar to the NTSC or HoS, but slightly weaker. The detective has strong capability for a rampage and a free rampage if there are no other officers or those officers fall first (which is likely as security will trust them), and the HoP comes with all access with one single click and no evidence if you play your cards right. I do think they should remain able to be antagonists and that that is a core part of their role but being so easily and prevalently mindhacked is not particularly engaging at least for me. 

For reference in any other role I get mindhacked very rarely, which is good as you shouldn't be expecting to be mindhacked, but playing detective or HoP I get mindhacked fairly often and I think having a partner to rampage with (they have a gun) and all access should take a little more effort than 3tc and a single click.

Rambled a bit but my last thing is that maybe after a bit of people seeing that other roles have a lot of value in mindhacking it could be removed, I would like to see a more varied list of who actually gets mindhacked and possibly a higher variety of purchased syndicate items.

[Lord_earthfire]

To recoup the rather recent history of mindshielding:

First we had secoffs getting a mindshield, which was needed because they were almost always targeted

Next, the captain was given a mindshield, to be "actually respected by (metagaming) security members"

Now we are talking about giving hop and detective mindshield because they can give out access and weapons? If you want to rampage, you could have a compareable effect by just killing them, which 3TC is plenty for.

Besides, the CE is still better to mindhack than the hop. Far better gear and more control over cargo and the engine.

[KikiMofo]

I still disagree with the captain mindshield.

[freedo5]

I feel like this would be a problem if people were constantly mind hacking detectives and hops, but honestly I think i've seen more cases of colleagues getting mindhacked. Maybe it's just my experience

[JORJ949]

I feel like this would be a problem if people were constantly mind hacking detectives and hops, but honestly I think i've seen more cases of colleagues getting mindhacked. Maybe it's just my experience

I feel like detectives and hops are the ones constantly mindhacked, at least this is true on classic, and the low population makes these roles even stronger e.g. little security to deal with a rogue detective.

[Mikeistaken]

I feel we can't keep giving roles mindhack protection... after every time a job gets a mind hack protection there will always be another meta job to give it to, regardless of circumstances. If we continue going down this path it could lead to almost every job having mindhack protection leaving mindhacks near useless

[Kotlol]

Requesting a different type of fix.
Insted of fixing the mindhack meta by PROTECTION.

Allow more ways to engage with the harder targets.
For one... having them get drunk will lower the protection and you can mindhack them, but you gotta keep em drunk.
Now how do you do that? Make sure all consumables have alcohol in them.

The detective is immune to this but has no mindhack protection from the start cause.. detective.

HoP, Captain, HoS, Security.... do not have it. If they get drunk or intoxicated in anyway... they are vunerable.
Yes even with injections...but thats a lot of points spent to get a security officer at that point so it balances out. And this now is also countered with toxin immunity mutation or enhanced by Ethanol production.
But essentially the target having to stay drunk makes the mindhack more risky. Also this only works on deluxe's.
Normal ones actually get disabled as well if the target is drunk. (Just a funny way of saying mindhacking your local drunk is actually immune.)

Better interaction. We can now protect as much roles as possible. And make the detective immune to non deluxe implants as again proffesional drunk but deluxe he's in. I think we found a nice balance and fun gameplay element.
BE WARE YOUR DRUNK COMRADES!

[Lefinch]

I feel like this would be a problem if people were constantly mind hacking detectives and hops, but honestly I think i've seen more cases of colleagues getting mindhacked. Maybe it's just my experience

I feel like detectives and hops are the ones constantly mindhacked, at least this is true on classic, and the low population makes these roles even stronger e.g. little security to deal with a rogue detective.

mindhacks are going to have a proportionally more powerful effect on a smaller population in general and I think it's a fair point to raise even if I have feelings about mindhack metabehaviour, which I don't think is actually worth bringing up here as it's not relevant to the idea itself. But I do think that mindhacking the one person in a lowpop situation who actually signed up in part to engage in "stopping antagonists" as a mechanic is wonky.

I'm just not also not aware of an immediate solution. I was going to suggest some kind of awkward population cap or control on mindhacks (anything from not being able to use/spawn them if the pop threshold is too low, to somehow some esoteric system for mindhacks not working if you're literally the only security available, but both options are incredibly messy, I have no idea how I'd code that or even if it's possible, and doesn't account for population flux) changing the rules around mindhacking requires metaknowledge of the population count which is also not really viable in my view. Some kind of thing where the crew gets a "heads up" announcement if the entire of security is dead/mindhacked? That's a big change with its own questions. I don't know. 

I do just think that it's a bit funky, purely from a classic perspective of knocking out your sole likely opposition. On RP, you should be escalating in a way that people know there's a threat building and not just one-click mindhacking the one lil guy without some kind of indication. I have to admit, I anecdotally see "All of sec is dead or doesn't even exist" on lowpop rp far more, but I think that again is mostly covered by escalation rules. -generally- lowpop antagonism is actually pretty low tempo too.

Summary: In the specific area Jorj is mentioning (classic, low population) I feel like there might be a potential fix that at least gives the remaining crew a heads up security is 100% compromised in some kind of announcement. However, I also admit it's not a perfect idea and doesn't address the HoP.

[Snoid]

HoP is whatever, thats literally just AA. you can get AA through plenty of other means, hop is just one of them. 3 tc for guarenteed aa isnt too cheap imo

det is a problem mindhack because the gun is overpowered as hell. fix the core issue and thats not a big problem anymore

i really dont think roles that can roll antag should get mindshields. doesnt make sense at all

[Frank_Stein]

Requesting a different type of fix.
Insted of fixing the mindhack meta by PROTECTION.

Allow more ways to engage with the harder targets.
For one... having them get drunk will lower the protection and you can mindhack them, but you gotta keep em drunk.
Now how do you do that? Make sure all consumables have alcohol in them.

The detective is immune to this but has no mindhack protection from the start cause.. detective.

HoP, Captain, HoS, Security.... do not have it. If they get drunk or intoxicated in anyway... they are vunerable.
Yes even with injections...but thats a lot of points spent to get a security officer at that point so it balances out. And this now is also countered with toxin immunity mutation or enhanced by Ethanol production.
But essentially the target having to stay drunk makes the mindhack more risky. Also this only works on deluxe's.
Normal ones actually get disabled as well if the target is drunk. (Just a funny way of saying mindhacking your local drunk is actually immune.)

Better interaction. We can now protect as much roles as possible. And make the detective immune to non deluxe implants as again proffesional drunk but deluxe he's in. I think we found a nice balance and fun gameplay element.
BE WARE YOUR DRUNK COMRADES!

Love it. In fact, other intoxicates should have this effect.

[KikiMofo]

I have a feeling that would just lead to those jobs just not drinking on the job.
I mean that would be good for RP purposes but in classic it would just make them avoid the bar.
Well unless they WANT to get mindjacked.

[Kotlol]

I have a feeling that would just lead to those jobs just not drinking on the job.
I mean that would be good for RP purposes but in classic it would just make them avoid the bar.
Well unless they WANT to get mindjacked.

Wich is why I also recommend that you can allow it via injections.
Just buy a beer, put in a syringe of modified hypospray and inject.

Besides the only ones to avoid drinking are: Security, Captain.
Aka the two jobs you do not want to see drinking on the job. Well maybe the captain wants to drink but you get it.

There are more then ONE WAY to get someone drunk. And as if people do not avoid the kitchen in Classic to avoid getting poisoned and such.
I am just giving antags another way to mind hack security but it takes a lot of effort and if they are willing to inject someone to get em drunk, mindhack them, have them chug alcohol to keep em around. That sounds fine by me.

But your concern is valid.
We will see how things go along if someone scripts this and test merges it. But for now.. just an idea

[freedo5]

I feel like this would be a problem if people were constantly mind hacking detectives and hops, but honestly I think i've seen more cases of colleagues getting mindhacked. Maybe it's just my experience

I feel like detectives and hops are the ones constantly mindhacked, at least this is true on classic, and the low population makes these roles even stronger e.g. little security to deal with a rogue detective.

I understand the issue, but I don't think the game should be balanced around low pop. Some people suggested limiting the item based on server pop, that if it's possible might be a solution.