Security should need to follow laws

[jan.antilles]

The information on the wiki is exactly what I quoted earlier. We do not provide a "list of standard brig times" and have no plans to do so.

A Security Officer should try to choose the least severe yet appropriate punishment. For most instances, time in the Brig and confiscation of any contraband should suffice. However, if a traitor is a lethal and immediate threat to the crew, lethal force may apply.

This is exactly what the wiki says. Nobody needs to keep this open on a second monitor.

[Mouse]

In real life sentencing guidelines take into account state of mind, likelihood of reoffense, prior offenses, health of the convicted, and various other considerations.  One size fits all sentencing just results in unjust outcomes, and it happening in a dumb farty spaceman game won't really change that.

[Shiiba]

There are definitely other servers out there that fit what you've outlined, but I don't think that stuff really fits here with Goon and how security on Goon operates.

[Gomp]

The information on the wiki is exactly what I quoted earlier. We do not provide a "list of standard brig times" and have no plans to do so.

I was unaware of this since the wiki does provide some under https://wiki.ss13.co/Space_Law#Crime_and_Punishment.

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A Security Officer should try to choose the least severe yet appropriate punishment. For most instances, time in the Brig and confiscation of any contraband should suffice. However, if a traitor is a lethal and immediate threat to the crew, lethal force may apply.

This is exactly what the wiki says. Nobody needs to keep this open on a second monitor.

This is a very vague statement which can be interpreted differently by many people. I understand that the admin team does not want to restrict players but Space Law should ideally help players understand what is expected of them, both by the admin team and by other players.

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In real life sentencing guidelines take into account state of mind, likelihood of reoffense, prior offenses, health of the convicted, and various other considerations.  One size fits all sentencing just results in unjust outcomes, and it happening in a dumb farty spaceman game won't really change that.

I do not believe "dumb farty spaceman game" needs perfectly just sentencing, for what is at most a 10 minute break and losing your fun tools.

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There are definitely other servers out there that fit what you've outlined, but I don't think that stuff really fits here with Goon and how security on Goon operates.

Can you please explain to me how Goonstation security operates so I can better understand why my suggestion would not fit?

[jan.antilles]

Ah, the Space Law page, forgot about that one. Sure, you can follow those, but it's not a requirement. I don't follow them when I play Sec.

"I have done exactly This Crime so I expect two minutes and thirty seconds in the brig" is not something you should be coming into Sec thinking to yourself. That's my point.

[Silent Majority]

Goon is different then a lot of servers. Part of this is we do not perma brig. We do not have a warden. We do not have a formalized or enforced law system In Game other then the vaguest and most general guidelines.

Part of the mechanics of this is goon is fast and arcadey. This is a concious design choice and player and admin preference. We have on rp short respawns and easy cloning.

If your punishment was going to be like half the round or more due to the severity why would I not just let you respawn. I have other stuff to do and presumably so do you.

As Jan mentioned, on the field in the moment decisions are a part of sec on Goon. They're a part of sec everywhere. But here if theres 10+gun toting gang members running around a sec off opts to pick up their dropped gun and finish one off that was just shooting them and using a civie as a human shield? The crew won't suddenly try to beat the sec off up for "breaking space law".

I like it here. I did alot of baystation security. I've done alot of goon security.

I know which I prefer. From a crew, antag, and secmain outlook

[Gomp]

Ah, the Space Law page, forgot about that one. Sure, you can follow those, but it's not a requirement. I don't follow them when I play Sec.

"I have done exactly This Crime so I expect two minutes and thirty seconds in the brig" is not something you should be coming into Sec thinking to yourself. That's my point.

I don't see the use in knowing how many seconds you are will need to stay in the brig (and I will say again that I don't expect officers to be this strict about it), what I do see the use in is knowing if you are going to get executed or not.

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Goon is different then a lot of servers.  Part of this is we do not perma brig. We do not have a warden. We do not have a formalized or enforced law system In Game other then the vaguest and most general guidelines.

Part of the mechanics of this is goon is fast and arcadey. This is a concious design choice and player and admin preference.  We have on rp short respawns and easy cloning.

If your punishment was going to be like half the round or more due to the severity why would I not just let you respawn. I have other stuff to do and presumably so do you.

As Jan mentioned, on the field in the moment decisions are a part of sec on Goon. They're a part of sec everywhere.  But here if theres 10+gun toting gang members running around a sec off opts to pick up their dropped gun and finish one off that was just shooting them and using a civie as a human shield? The crew won't  suddenly try to beat the sec off up for "breaking space law".

I like it here.  I did alot of baystation security. I've done alot of goon security.

I know which I prefer.  From a crew, antag, and secmain outlook

I am not suggesting any new forms of punishment for players who break Space Law, I am not suggesting officers shouldn't be allowed to make in the moment decisions. I am suggesting that, in the completely officer controlled scenario of an arrest gone good, the criminal knows what kind of trouble he is in.

[KikiMofo]

Generally speaking outside of murder most crimes in Goonstation should only be at max like 2 minutes of brigging.
Its just a game and no one needs to be stuck in the brig for the whole round for stealing something. Well unless you ask them if they wanna stay in the brig. Then you can RP some stuff.

[jan.antilles]

what I do see the use in is knowing if you are going to get executed or not

You still aren't going to know that for sure, even if there's a checklist. How much does Sec know you did? How thoroughly do they check you for contraband? How much is going on and how overloaded are they? How do you act while you're being detained and searched? If they do say execution, do they just space you? (You might still get back.) Do they crusher you? (Probably not.)

In general, if you have been murdering: expect execution. If you are a nonhuman and act threatening: expect execution. If you try to kill an officer: expect execution.

If you think Sec is jumping to execution too quick: ahelp it.

[Gomp]

Generally speaking outside of murder most crimes in Goonstation should only be at max like 2 minutes of brigging.
Its just a game and no one needs to be stuck in the brig for the whole round for stealing something. Well unless you ask them if they wanna stay in the brig. Then you can RP some stuff.

As I said I don't know what should be written in Space Law but without it there is no reason to believe or to expect the things that "should" happen actually happen.

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It might also be worth mentioning that wiki suggests a 5 minute brig time for killing someone who can't be cloned.

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what I do see the use in is knowing if you are going to get executed or not

You still aren't going to know that for sure, even if there's a checklist. How much does Sec know you did? How thoroughly do they check you for contraband? How much is going on and how overloaded are they? How do you act while you're being detained and searched? If they do say execution, do they just space you? (You might still get back.) Do they crusher you? (Probably not.)

In general, if you have been murdering: expect execution. If you are a nonhuman and act threatening: expect execution. If you try to kill an officer: expect execution.

If you think Sec is jumping to execution too quick: ahelp it.

This information isn't represented on the wiki and most certainly not in the game. Most articles like the one you showed seem to really want officers to avoid executing someone unless they are actively killing people in the moment. There some more to unpack here but I'd just say that if I saw a fellow officer kill someone for "threatening" them I'd take their badge and a-help.

[Mouse]

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It might also be worth mentioning that wiki suggests a 5 minute brig time for killing someone who can't be cloned.

lmao is that why people who spent the round throwing everyone into the crusher start screaming about how i'm only supposed to brig them for five minutes before they explode into gibs

[Frank_Stein]

A Security Officer should try to choose the least severe yet appropriate punishment. For most instances, time in the Brig and confiscation of any contraband should suffice. However, if a traitor is a lethal and immediate threat to the crew, lethal force may apply.

This is a very vague statement which can be interpreted differently by many people. I understand that the admin team does not want to restrict players but Space Law should ideally help players understand what is expected of them, both by the admin team and by other players.

"Least severe yet appropriate punishment"
Personally I would change punishment to response, since as Sec your job isn't to catch the criminals, it's to keep the crew and station safe from them

And that is how I think you should interpret this. When reacting to an incident, ask yourself "In what way can I deescalate this situation with the least amount of force?"

Sometimes that's gradual increases in pressure. Take a look at the procedure suggestion

1) Assess the situation.
2) Declare your intention.
3) Only stun suspects who show signs of resisting.
4) Processing suspects should take place inside the brig or a security checkpoint.
5) Processed suspects should be brigged ASAP.
6) Brigged suspects must be watched closely.
7) Watch your fellow officers.

First and second steps are about deciding what you should do, and making it clear you're about to do it. Third is when force comes into play, and it defines why you would use it.

So if you're worried about when something like an execution should apply, consider why that much force would need to be applied. The target would have to had to display the ability and willingness to perform lethal harm to the crew or station, in such a way that detaining them would not be able to dissuade them. 

As someone whom Sec is arresting, you should expect them to respond to you with somewhat the same level of aggression you're showing them, and for any detainment and punishment to be proportional to the threat you'd pose if free.

[Gomp]

I appreciate all the information on how a security officer should act, but I think I should clarify that I personally haven't had much decision paralysis regarding my behavior as an officer. The point of this suggestion wasn't that I feel insecure in how I act as a security officer, I feel very confident in my abilities, the main reason was that everyone seems to have a very different set of expectations and since this includes the admin team.
I think some thinking should be done on what security officers are actually expected to do GENERALLY so that this information can be directed to players both via the wiki and through the in game Space Law book.

[jan.antilles]

that everyone seems to have a very different set of expectations and since this includes the admin team

Yeah, that's... normal. Different admins and different security officers will handle things in slightly different ways. The most important thing is that the rules of the game are followed and upheld.

This is starting to come across as "please tell these unruly officers to do things right so that I know exactly how far to push things as an antag or I can correct them as an officer." I'm not interested in doing that.

[JORJ949]

Security punishments is almost entirely based on the context of the round, having a list of "laws" to follow removes the freedom in deciding punishment based on context and locks more interesting and engaging punishments behind "well this is the law so you have to do this", most officers can judge a punishment well anyway and if they can't then other officers or the HoS are there to discuss that judgement and if it was too lenient or too harsh.