Security should need to follow laws

[Gomp]

ALL OF THIS IS INTENDED FOR THE ROLE-PLAY SERVERS

In it's current implementation Space Law is practically nonexistent, every security player follows their own set of rules, makeing coordination with and reliance on other officers difficult, since you work with a different set of rules, there are regularly complaints about how security deals with specific cases and players new to security will have a hard time figuring out why no one is following the rules written in the law book they get at round start and what they are expected to do instead.

What if things could be clearer?

Well they could be clearer if Space Law was a comprehensively applicable set of rules that defined the sentence and (more importantly) the corresponding punishment.

But you might say: "The reason Space Law is as vague as it is is to make it possible for every security player to have their own playstyle." and that is certainly what is happening right now...but that is part of the problem. Player agency is very good when it is fun for everyone (which it is in most cases), however I am very strongly of the opinion that it is not good when applied to law and punishment, you can't expect everyone to agree on what should be done after all, so you need an authoritative set of rules to make sure everyone is having fun. That is why the server rules exist.

This doesn't mean no one should break the Space Law, it just means when they do security doesn't need to hold an internal meeting to decide how to deal with it.

This doesn't mean officers have no personal agency they are still expected to define the crime that was comitted they just can't make up the corresponding punishment.

What is does mean is that Antagonists or anyone else breaking the law knows how they will probably be punished and how they can be punished.

But what is even going in it and what if I don't like what it says?

The main difference to my approach compared to current Space Law is that it is no longer a suggestion. The easiest way to implement this idea would be to take the "Crime and Punishment" section from current wiki article for Space Law put it in the current book every security assistant spawns with and delete the "loose" in "Space Law is an in-character set of loose guidelines for playing security, NOT the actual server rules. As a security officer, you are not absolutely beholden to Space Law so long as you follow the rules".

Yes this means an officer doesn't need to follow Space Law if they don't think it is the best course of action, but any officer wanting to keep their job should think twice before breaking it.

If Space Law is implemented it should be adaptable, if someone has a complaint about the way something is worded or thinks something is punished too strongly/not strongly enough, they should be able to write a forum post about it and then it should be up to the admins to act on it. It is very important that this happens! Space Law needs to be based on the opinions of the community and administration. I don't want to push my own personal laws here, I want to make sure that there are laws I don't need to make up.

THIS IDEA NEEDS FEEDBACK!

What do you think should be considered?

 

What do you think should be included?

What did I miss?

[Kotlol]

in classic... space law is there, but gets ignored most of the time cause of how hectic those rounds get.
Applying space law takes a lot of time.

In RP, applying space law... takes a lot of time and we don't want antags or players to go through the riggamarol of the space law.
It would slow down process and if someone gets arrested we get the whole going through the space law stuff and then get processed.
By removeing most of the ambigitiouty of the space law... people get arrested, put in the brig for a minute then can continune antagging or such.

Imagine being arrested as an antag for having possible contraband, getting arrested and then basically your round is over without much of an interaction.
This has happened to me before where a packet sniffer user litterly caught on to my SPIEFing without me as much as doing anything, sure my stash was hidden away... but basically my PDA got taken and I was busted before I even did 1 crime.

Trust me when I say this, but space law being a suggestion is kinda always a good thing as it allows security officers to get faster to the highlights of Antag vs Security.

[Gomp]

In RP, applying space law... takes a lot of time and we don't want antags or players to go through the riggamarol of the space law.
It would slow down process and if someone gets arrested we get the whole going through the space law stuff and then get processed.
By removeing most of the ambigitiouty of the space law... people get arrested, put in the brig for a minute then can continune antagging or such.

I'm not expecting people to hold trials or anything I would just like the time you get brigged for to be standardized between all officers for the same crimes.
Knowing what time a given crime gets you in the brig (or having the wiki open until you know) doesn't seem like a long time waste, especially if the alternative is supposed to be a discussion between all sec members.

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Imagine being arrested as an antag for having possible contraband, getting arrested and then basically your round is over without much of an interaction.
This has happened to me before where a packet sniffer user litterly caught on to my SPIEFing without me as much as doing anything, sure my stash was hidden away... but basically my PDA got taken and I was busted before I even did 1 crime.

That sucks but it happened without this system so I don't really see what it has to do with the topic. I think Space Law could make it clear the pre-emptive arresting is not legal, it could even discourage it in that way.

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Trust me when I say this, but space law being a suggestion is kinda always a good thing as it allows security officers to get faster to the highlights of Antag vs Security.

I can only speak for my own experience here but the time between knowing the antag exists and brigging him is usually my favourite (if the antag is good at rp-ing and things like that), Space Law only applies after you catch Mr. Kill or whoever, it can be written in any way people want but I'd personally like it if it was quite lenient to give antags and officers more chances to interact, but if that is not the general sentiment it can also be written in the opposite way.

[Kotlol]

Now this is becoming a good discussioin.

As for standard times... this can be EASILY FIXED with a UI click.
As it stands the timers are kinda clunky from time to time.
But if you can click a timer (1 min, 2 mins, 5 mins, etc)
It would speed up that with easy.

The rest I do agree. I do think it should be also easier accessiable to gain information in game and we been getting that bit by bit.
I kinda dislike the whole: If you don't know it.. Wiki it.
Why do I need to open a wiki to play the game? And then some things are hidden but once you know it.. you are allowed to use it freely.

But sidetracking aside. Space Law should be abit more enforced correctly. And the easier it is for any security officer to look up the times or ease of use would decrease the problem.
Like maybe a plague next to the brig pointing out how long for certain offenses are. Then throw a guy in the brig, then press a button and BRIGGED AND PROCCESSED

[Frank_Stein]

I think it would be hilarious if Space Law was just record book of past trials to reference the ruling on

[KikiMofo]

Space Law is a suggestion, not a....law.

[Gomp]

Now this is becoming a good discussioin.

As for standard times... this can be EASILY FIXED with a UI click.
As it stands the timers are kinda clunky from time to time.
But if you can click a timer (1 min, 2 mins, 5 mins, etc)
It would speed up that with easy.

...

Like maybe a plague next to the brig pointing out how long for certain offenses are. Then throw a guy in the brig, then press a button and BRIGGED AND PROCCESSED

This sounds great and would probably be better at making security more consistent, I do see a problem in the fact that you can only have so many buttons for so many crimes and even if you generalise the issue of "is flashing the HoP after he turned into a pig and started eating your crops this crime or this crime..." will probably come up a lot, which it will anyways and probably just gives lawyers something to do, so it has more ups then downs.
Bonus Points for making it sent an alert to the sec channel.
Bonus Bonus Points for making it say the crime.

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I think it would be hilarious if Space Law was just record book of past trials to reference the ruling on

It would certainly be hilaroious but that might need to go in the Lawyer Special edition of Space Law since it isn't really practical for officers to look into that on the fly.

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Space Law is a suggestion, not a....law.

It certainly is currently I do agree. But I believe if implemented a little more coherently it could really improve security on criminal interactions.

[jan.antilles]

What is does mean is that Antagonists or anyone else breaking the law knows how they will probably be punished and how they can be punished.

Given that we don't really do things like extensive prison sentences or permabrigging on Goon, the answer is: you're gonna be brigged. The timer only goes up to a couple minutes. Maybe with interro first. You may or may not have contraband or tools taken away, depending on how busy Sec is and what you've been up to. If you've been killing people or you're clearly not going to stop being a threat, you could be executed and need to wait out the 10 minute respawn timer.

I see no reason to make things more complicated for security players than that.

[Gomp]

What is does mean is that Antagonists or anyone else breaking the law knows how they will probably be punished and how they can be punished.

Given that we don't really do things like extensive prison sentences or permabrigging on Goon, the answer is: you're gonna be brigged. The timer only goes up to a couple minutes. Maybe with interro first. You may or may not have contraband or tools taken away, depending on how busy Sec is and what you've been up to. If you've been killing people or you're clearly not going to stop being a threat, you could be executed and need to wait out the 10 minute respawn timer.

I see no reason to make things more complicated for security players than that.

There is a large difference between brig time, execution and tickets (I have seen exile quite a lot too) so I believe it would make securites job easier to know when to execute someone and when to take away their guns, following that line of thought I also believe that antagonists would be a lot more comfortable in their roles if they had a reliable way of knowing when they are going to face execution, vs when they can come back later.
Regarding complexity in my opinion being left up to make those choices yourself or having a disussion with your team while the criminal is probably in your grab, trying to escape, is a lot more complicated then looking in a book and knowing how you are officially (in rp and out of rp) supposed to behave.

[jan.antilles]

There is a large difference between brig time, execution and tickets (I have seen exile quite a lot too) so I believe it would make securites job easier to know when to execute someone and when to take away their guns, following that line of thought I also believe that antagonists would be a lot more comfortable in their roles if they had a reliable way of knowing when they are going to face execution, vs when they can come back later.
Regarding complexity in my opinion being left up to make those choices yourself or having a disussion with your team while the criminal is probably in your grab, trying to escape, is a lot more complicated then looking in a book and knowing how you are officially (in rp and out of rp) supposed to behave.

A reliably way of knowing how things are going to go with other players is never guaranteed, though. Both sides will be acting on incomplete information and doing their best.

We have guidance on the wiki for Security Officers:

A Security Officer should try to choose the least severe yet appropriate punishment. For most instances, time in the Brig and confiscation of any contraband should suffice. However, if a traitor is a lethal and immediate threat to the crew, lethal force may apply. This is not to say that you can execute anyone you want, however. If applicable, you should ALWAYS get authorization for any lethal force from a Head of Security (or, if the Head of Security is unavailable, the captain may suffice).

This is in line with what we expect from secoffs, both in and out of RP. I do not expect people who roll Sec to perfectly interpret the rules to take action against other players. That's my job as an admin. What I do ask is for everyone to use their best judgment to keep the round flowing, be fair to each other as players, and to communicate with other players and the admin team when there's issues and uncertainties that arise.

[Gomp]

We have guidance on the wiki for Security Officers:

A Security Officer should try to choose the least severe yet appropriate punishment. For most instances, time in the Brig and confiscation of any contraband should suffice. However, if a traitor is a lethal and immediate threat to the crew, lethal force may apply. This is not to say that you can execute anyone you want, however. If applicable, you should ALWAYS get authorization for any lethal force from a Head of Security (or, if the Head of Security is unavailable, the captain may suffice).

This is in line with what we expect from secoffs, both in and out of RP. I do not expect people who roll Sec to perfectly interpret the rules to take action against other players. That's my job as an admin. What I do ask is for everyone to use their best judgment to keep the round flowing, be fair to each other as players, and to communicate with other players and the admin team when there's issues and uncertainties that arise.

Space Law would make it possible to show players a very accurate and specific list of expectations while also avoiding any conflicts with rp, because they count for both. I do not expect anyone to follow Space Law to the letter when punishing someone but I do expect specific Space Law to help players decide on the appropriate punishment, threat asessment is subjective and therefore I believe it cannot be relied on.
The wiki article may give a general idea of what a security officer isn't supposed to do but it does not help a player who is wondering how they should deal with prisoners besides not killing them without HoS/Captain permission and I strongly believe, based on my own experience, that this can cause a lot of confusion in the department and is one of the main reasons for the overly long "pre-brig" times a prisoner needs to deal with before their actual punishment time starts.

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A reliably way of knowing how things are going to go with other players is never guaranteed, though. Both sides will be acting on incomplete information and doing their best.

I agree. I also believe that Space Law could help mitigate this issue.

[jan.antilles]

threat asessment is subjective and therefore I believe it cannot be relied on

That's fine. All we ask is that people do their best. A rigid system of crime and punishment is not what we're looking for. If that was the case, Security would be staffed exclusively by administrators or just left to automatic systems. But it's not, because human interactions are subjective and this game is based on human interactions. Especially the roleplay server!

is one of the main reasons for the overly long "pre-brig" times a prisoner needs to deal with before their actual punishment time starts

The point of that is roleplay. Interrogation and searches and deliberating on punishments is part of the game. Players who are new to security first have access to the assistant role, and are encouraged to learn from more experienced members... as is the case with every department. Everyone is just doing their best. Excessive issues can always be ahelped.

I also believe that Space Law could help mitigate this issue.

Having incomplete information is not an issue that needs to be mitigated. It is literally part of the game as designed.

[Frank_Stein]

Space Law would make it possible to show players a very accurate and specific list of expectations while also avoiding any conflicts with rp, because they count for both. I do not expect anyone to follow Space Law to the letter when punishing someone but I do expect specific Space Law to help players decide on the appropriate punishment, threat asessment is subjective and therefore I believe it cannot be relied on.
The wiki article may give a general idea of what a security officer isn't supposed to do but it does not help a player who is wondering how they should deal with prisoners besides not killing them without HoS/Captain permission and I strongly believe, based on my own experience, that this can cause a lot of confusion in the department and is one of the main reasons for the overly long "pre-brig" times a prisoner needs to deal with before their actual punishment time starts.

Honestly, I feel the wiki page already does a good enough job and suggesting appropriate punishments with brig times. 

I wouldn't want a system where a player is beholden to a strict sentencing per crime, I think that would just create a lot of situations where players will conflict over if things are "correct" that the admin team will be asked to intervene or make judgement calls on.

[Gomp]

Honestly, I feel the wiki page already does a good enough job and suggesting appropriate punishments with brig times.

I do too but sadly the wiki article isn't represented in the in-game item.

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I wouldn't want a system where a player is beholden to a strict sentencing per crime, I think that would just create a lot of situations where players will conflict over if things are "correct" that the admin team will be asked to intervene or make judgement calls on.

I don't know what you mean by "strict" but I don't think Space Law would actually need to be enforced by admins, it's just supposed to make sure everyone is on the same page for what sort of punishment a crime usually gets. I would really dislike it if it was, since, for example being treated more harshly by an officer for killing their pet, is definetly a part of the game for me.
I can't really comment on how much rules lawyering could happen, since I don't know how many complaints security gets for sentencing right now.
I do think it should be clarified that Space Law still makes exeptions possible, since it really is supposed to be an in-rp set of rules, enforced by officers in-rp wanting to keep their jobs.

[Kotlol]

Honestly, I feel the wiki page already does a good enough job and suggesting appropriate punishments with brig times. 

<<Please keep the wiki open at all times to know what to do in game>>
This mentality is what I kinda dislike of SS13 and why it sometimes scares newer players.

Now I do think some things should be red, but the rules are atleast in game.
Space law is in game but you gotta buy it and then read it.

The problem with this system is... not every player has enough monitor space to have a wiki open and the game. This makes them alt tab, look through the wiki to find brigging time and ---
You get it.
Having the right wiki page ready takes time, now you could do it in the 1st 5 mins of a shift sure.
But every time you have to look something up... it's go to the wiki on your browser.

I do agree the rules should be loose, but at the same time... accesiability to them should be easier then look and skim through a book. I think the RP concern would be better if there was easier accesability in game to find this stuff.
For example, a standard form on the walls pointing to standard punishments.
You can still IGNORE THEM, but it would feel nicer if you can just find the stuff that require standards to just be in your hands.

I mean... every engine litterly has a book or pamphlet nearby to tell you how it works.
Botany gets the guide, ranchers get the chart, cargo gets the book, etc etc.
But personally? I rather have some sort of directive on the walls to reference to then "Open the wiki"

Any time a basic function or streamlining should be common knowledge is responded with "open the wiki" I just shudder.
Now looking up advanced stuff on the wiki I don't have to interact with everytime? No problem.
But for standard brig times as security? I don't think the wiki should be the reference everyone has to open every time.