Traitor Detective - A Discussion

[Nerkson]

It's that time of the week month year again. 

Detective is an extremely fascinating role. They have access to some of the most unique, interesting, and arguably powerful toys, tools, and tech than any other role on station.

We're talking:

• A hat that can store something around 10 unique items, all of them invaluable to the average sleuth including body bags, flash lights, cigarettes, alcohol, a flash, and more.
  
• The same hat can then transform into a pilotable robot hat that can squeeze under doors, entering near any area of the station, and can do remove forensics scans.
  
• Access to Luminol Grenades that reveal blood.
  
• A device that lets the detective track individuals in real time by simply scanning recent and fresh blood.
  
• A hand held scanner that can scan one more tile away than other roles scanners, which means they can scan objects like microwaves and deep fryers without worry and without leaving their own prints behind.
  
• Their very own private office.
  
• A pair of VR goggles that let them quickly set anyone to arrest, or to even add / remove records instantly.
  
• Near complete security access to the main security area, which means they now have access to all of securities toys.
  
• Last but not least, their very own gun.
  

The gun is probably my focus here. I'm going to lay it on the table I do not like that detectives can be antagonists. They have some of the strongest potential to lie and be believed. Officers rarely make an effort to double check everyone else's work and their word is taken at face value. They can tell random people to follow them with the full authority of security and lure them to a trap where our antagonist detective eats yet another person. They have incredible syndicate items in the form of Xray goggles, a more powerful scuttlebot, and armor piercing rounds to assassinate any target who thinks an armor vest will keep them safe.

Rather than argue that Detective be removed from the antagonist pool altogether (As much as I'd like that) I'd like to argue instead something else - Detectives do not spawn with Live Ammo on them or in their office.

I've had situations where the detective decides they're going to be Gods executioner and they spray a hall full of live ammo, hitting more innocents than the guilty. I've had to take away a few detectives firearms because of this. It makes for fun roleplay sometimes, but then again security had their riot control grenades swapped for flashbangs for similar reasons. In a way, detective feels weird too - they feel like they should be a distinctly independent security advisor, and yet they're just officers who can be evil sometimes.

Would love any feedback or anecdotes if ya got them.

[Silent Majority]

Traitor detective i feel should not spawn under 35 population. I think their unique advantages and strengths in a low to no sec enviroment is too powerful

[Kotlol]

As a detective main... yea it's too powerful for one item alone.

"The VR goggles"
They can rewrite entire security records hyperfast... and leave NO TRACE or ALERT of it happening unlike Sec-mate.

Luckily I am one of the few Det mains who does it. But in actual gameplay... security cannot rely on beepskies due to the antag det going to remote locations to mess with the records faster then they can.
Let alone the VR goggles give camera access too... from any location.. you don't even need the remote monitor item.

So in my opinion... I am fine with fine tuning the traitor one, since they can get two guns with one having Armor Piercing too.
If anything... Traitor Det has the best kit, alternatives, funny outcomes but overtuned.

I have requested several times that the VR goggles run on SECMATE.

[KikiMofo]

Here we go again

[Lord_earthfire]

One of these discussion again, huh?

I feel like the gun is mid compared to what other jobs offer, e.g. botany deathplants or fucking ttvs.

The power from det traitor comes from being trusted in security. And that, as far as i know, is something we want to keep.

[Kotlol]

One of these discussion again, huh?

I feel like the gun is mid compared to what other jobs offer, e.g. botany deathplants or fucking ttvs.

The power from det traitor comes from being trusted in security. And that, as far as i know, is something we want to keep.

I do agree being trusted and the gun aren't the main issues with me too.

I'd say the VR goggles are just too powerful of an item on a traitor since there is no active way to counter it.
Essentially the det can go off station, mess with the records in no time and then force SEC to turn off all beepskies and unable to trust their SEC-HUDs or arrest records or lose a man fixing something that is super tedious and unfun.

The only true counter to it is someone to use the filing cabinet (if it's there) in the det's office since it's on equal speed.
But again.. that means leaving a man in the DET'S OFFICE rather then the MAIN SECURITY OFFICE. And in a lot of maps the Det's office is across the map.

I'll just keep vouching for the nerfing of the VR goggles since they make the filing cabinets OBSOLETE unless the Det is in his office (and when is he really?)

Anyway I am going in circles. Do not nerf traitor det on sec acces or guns, those aren't a problem. The problem stems from a single item that litterly gives det his own security office on demand whenever... wich is faster then any security member can work.

Most Antags take 2 officers to combat a traitor. Traitor Det takes 3 in my opinion due those vr goggles.

[JORJ949]

One of these discussion again, huh?

I feel like the gun is mid compared to what other jobs offer, e.g. botany deathplants or fucking ttvs.

The power from det traitor comes from being trusted in security. And that, as far as i know, is something we want to keep.

As someone who has made their fair share of detective nerf PRs I agree with this, the fun part of detective is that they can be antag and are a bit of a loose cannon if so, to me the only problem I have with detectives is those being judge jury and executioner with their lethal ammunition, but this is an admin issue. 

I did want to nerf the amount of lethal ammunition detective's can obtain without armory to be just what they get at shift start but https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21107 got declined. Though I still stand by the idea that the lethal ammo for the detective shouldn't be something you can replace without approval from either the HoS, captain or rest of security; it should be spent wisely in moments of extreme need.

[Silent Majority]

I feel like going "one of these again here we go guys" isn't contributing a lot. If you've nothing to say but a derisive eyeroll does it need to be said?

Nerkson wants to have the discussion. Yes we have had it before.

This conversation isn't about nerfing detective at its intent. Or taking away anything. Its about the power an antagonist detective has, and examing if their existance is good.

I will stand by my belief that a traitor detectige on low pop has incredible power in an rp scenario

[KikiMofo]

I feel like going "one of these again here we go guys" isn't contributing a lot. If you've nothing to say but a derisive eyeroll does it need to be said?

Nerkson wants to have the discussion.  Yes we have had it before.

This conversation isn't about nerfing detective at its intent. Or taking away anything. Its about the power an antagonist detective has, and examing if their existance is good.

I will stand by my belief that a traitor detectige on low pop has incredible power in an rp scenario

We just had a multi page discussion about detective back in november and the last post was in december. Thats only a couple months ago. So yeah I'm going to say, "Here we go again."

As far as the detectives VR goggles go I think its pretty easy to tell when someone is messing around with those when a bunch of people suddenly are getting set to arrest quickly. Pretty quick to find out if the detective is traitor.

[Nerkson]

One of these discussion again, huh?

I feel like the gun is mid compared to what other jobs offer, e.g. botany deathplants or fucking ttvs.

The power from det traitor comes from being trusted in security. And that, as far as i know, is something we want to keep.

I cannot say I like this level of reasoning because it very well implies that if something isn't as devastating as a TTV or whatever Botany does, then it does not need to be nerfed since players can just make those in large quantities. Science does not start immediately with a massive kit of items designed to frame anyone, kill anyone, or do whatever you want to anyone, but detective does.



Not every situation requires massive explosives to be bad or at its worst. And I truly feel that the detective having so many unique tools that are extremely powerful, alongside its high level of implied trust as a member of Security, that leads to unfun scenarios. 

We just had a multi page discussion about detective back in november and the last post was in december. Thats only a couple months ago. So yeah I'm going to say, "Here we go again."

As far as the detectives VR goggles go I think its pretty easy to tell when someone is messing around with those when a bunch of people suddenly are getting set to arrest quickly. Pretty quick to find out if the detective is traitor.

I can understand it might be frustrating that our slow forums don't move at a fast pace, and when new posts are added they feel like the old posts. I do not make posts randomly though. If I go through a round and experience some frustrating elements or get a real bad vibe about something I will think about it, and if it is still bothering me later I will make a post.



I am sorry if this topic has been discussed before, I was almost certain it had been discussed before. It has been something on my mind recently so I decided to make this post so I can release it and let it go. For older feedback posts, I cannot remember every changelog that has happened in the game and so a post from 4 or 6 months ago (or even longer) might not have accurate feedback to what I am experiencing today.

You say its pretty quick to tell the detective is a traitor, but they don't have to delete everyone's records so obviously. There is a, I wouldn't call it implied but there is definitely the idea in RP that if there is a crime such as a break in, or stabbing, or what have you then you get the Detective involved. A traitor detective can just lie because once again, no one double checks blood work - because why would you believe your fellow security members are turn coats?

This idea that the detective can be a loose cannon who actually works for the Syndicate/is a monster is really bad. Am I going to have to start breathing down the detectives neck every round now because of how loose of a cannon they can be? Do detectives REALLY want me to do that to them? Every time the detective says they've done something, I send an officer to re-validate it. Every single blood sample is double checked, every bullet casing re-verified. It's a level of suspicion that would frustrate the living hell out of anyone! And for the record, I would never do this unless I had solid reasoning in round.

This kind of thought leads to the idea that the detective shouldn't be an antag, which I once again state I will not go so far as to even recommend. Clearly the detective was at least one persons ultra favorite role and they went on to give it the most unique gadgets of any role. Their Traitor items only enhance this, and Monster detectives can go damn near anywhere or have a resiliency that the other officers do not have!

[Chasu]

Speaking only on the gun, I wouldn't mind live ammo being locked in the armory/behind traitor purchases. The rest of the sec team is "restricted" to (also very powerful) stuns anyway, and since the detective isn't even in a position to make real arrests, they shouldn't have much more powerful weapons.

[Lord_earthfire]

This idea that the detective can be a loose cannon who actually works for the Syndicate/is a monster is really bad. Am I going to have to start breathing down the detectives neck every round now because of how loose of a cannon they can be? Do detectives REALLY want me to do that to them?

That behaviour gets you ahelped. That is a problem with the (in this example) metagaming player, not the detective role.

[Emimiyu]

"What if the detective lie and we don't recheck about it?"

Ngl, it sounds like something out of culture issue and this is "people lie the game", the liars can win. No one really bother to work with dets in security, except if you are a static character. Det is one of the ignorable security member because idk. If a lot of people work with detective in teams rather than oh det is just there, you can probably know if they are up to something. Heck even if detective is gone, they are up to something, but do sec bother to check? Idk. Would people even bother interacting with detective or would just ignore them existing?

Also there are things that can make fake forensic outside detective lying. A mop, sponge, a handkerchief, and we even have finger prints modifier. If det net is too OP, no one use it much except a few person, it even took me ages to know about detnet. And traitor hop exist with easy access to secmate. Should we just not trusting everyone?

I do agree though, det antag on like lowpop can be sucky, especially when the only sec in the round is the detective.

[freedo5]

I mean I think the detective as an antagonist is fine. It fits in an interesting place exactly because it is a trusted role, and at the same time they might just backstab you. As for their powerful items I don't think they are a non solvable issue. The gun got a small debuffs recently-ish with the addition of recoil and it is loud and the record modification can be fixed even if it's a bit annoying. (But that's why we have HoPs to do annoying paperwork)

[Tessellation]

As someone who plays detective basically every time it's available, I'd rather that the detective lose their ability to be a traitor rather than lose their lethals. Traitor det is fun but I think it's also a bit weird in concept. Lethal ammo is fun and flavorful, and I don't really see people misusing it (on lowpop at least).