[MERGED PR] Removes the security alert HUD button

[github_bot]

PULL REQUEST DETAILS





About the PR
Removes the security alert HUD button from security PDAs. The alert can still be sent from the menu, the same way as any other PDA.


Why's this needed?
This feature was added a few years ago without any particular justification (#3017 I think?) and seems to be generally disliked for promoting the well known security swarm descending on a location the instant one of their officers is in trouble.

You can always call for help the old fashioned way, but hopefully this will lead to more opportunities for antags to take out isolated security officers without them suddenly turning into [Cuccos](https://zelda-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Cucco).

Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)LeahTheTech
(*)Removed the security alert HUD button.

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[Nerkson]

I'm always willing to try a test-merger, but without proper protections Security becomes loot pinatas for certain types of antags, especially on role play where they may be encouraged to not go in guns blazing minute one.

[TDHooligan]

the blob really is a little easy to summon at the minute. good pr

this is one of a few cases where usability is directly tied to balance, but i think it's worth it.

[RubberRats]

After giving it a bit of thought, I think this is probably fine. Nothing is stopping an officer from going ":g SHIT" while they're being beat on, so this likely won't enable a random traitor to effortlessly pick off security one by one.

If the problem was specifically crisis alerts, I think some hiccups with the acknowledgement function are part of it. It was initially added to stop dogpiling by letting other officers know who was responding to a given alert. Currently, the hyperlink won't work if your PDA is opened to another program. Switching it back isn't very convenient, and in my experience this keeps a significant number of people from actually using them.

[Kateaclysm]

After giving it a bit of thought, I think this is probably fine. Nothing is stopping an officer from going ":g SHIT" while they're being beat on, so this likely won't enable a random traitor to effortlessly pick off security one by one.

If the problem was specifically crisis alerts, I think some hiccups with the acknowledgement function are part of it. It was initially added to stop dogpiling by letting other officers know who was responding to a given alert. Currently, the hyperlink won't work if your PDA is opened to another program. Switching it back isn't very convenient, and in my experience this keeps a significant number of people from actually using them.

Yeah, this is a big issue with it. You've got to be on the HOME page too, not just the apps menu. It's a little annoying, especially since Sec already use their PDAs a lot.

[Emimiyu]

Neutral opinion about this (maybe more on agreeing part). The faster a seccie press alert, the faster you can take them away or run off to other spot before other security notice. At the same time, most people play sec with their PDA open. I do see an issue when people use the alert more to invite other security to chase the antagonist, rather than using the radio or using it when they are actually in danger/alone when handling an antagonist.

The reason why I am neutral, I just don't think how this would change a lot if most officers have their PDA open anyway. Also, it won't stop people who press it when they don't need to, but make it a bit harder for people who need to press it when they do need it. We also already have security health alert "nerfed" in some way.

[Cropsey]

I don't like this PR at all. I see sec get routinely snatched off into nowhere before a crisis alert even does anything, and the whole distinction is that the one from the module in the PDA is for backup, instead of a new crisis. Like in real life if youre getting shot at you don't have time to pull out your PDA. All this is going to do is mean security are now walking lootbags, like someone said, rather than strength in numbers (that usually get stomped anyhow) and reinforce the LING SCIENCE MAINTS mentality which I don't really want to see.

I don't really know why sec keeps getting nerfed in recent history, it doesn’t seem like it needs it in terms of balance.

[Chatauscours]

Yeah I heavily dislike this PR.

Like, I get magdumped with very little warning every 3-4 rounds. Sometimes multiple times a round. I can be just walking in a hall, someone might wave at me, ask me if the weather is nice, and then shoot me twice with a deeringer point blank. Now at this point, I cannot pull my PDA because I am lying on the floor. I cannot and will not be able to call anyone over radio at all because i'm in crit and I have oxy loss. They drag my body off to maintance, and with the nerfs to death alerts, the first warning that I got shot security gets is 30 seconds after I die, when my body is looted and my ID and guns are gone.
Should I just stop talking to people to avoid this? Should I just stop trusting them entirely, and begin wearing a flack vest instead of my cape?

Or another situation, that happened just a few days ago. Gang round. I know that a guy has a pistol. So I go up and politely ask him to give me the pistol. Instead I get shot with an assault rifle, which I did not know they had. It's the northen main hall of Cog2, there is nobody to hear the gunfire, I enter crit and press the alert, which is the only way my body even gets discovered before it's looted, the guy runs off, but gets caught a few minutes later.
Now, i like to talk to people and give them a chance to hand over the guns if they weren't violent so far. With no alert, should have I just tased them on sight instead to avoid getting my gear stolen?



My point is. You are removing here the last safety net officers can rely upon. If you remove this, you'll just promote secoffs playing as paranoically as possible, and honestly, I wouldn't even be able to blame them for it, because there's no guarantee your body will even exist by the time anyone discovers you might be in trouble.


There are already ways to kill a standalone secoff, even with the alert. Yes, you need to plan it a little. But like, killing a secoff and getting their gear should take a minimum amount of planning, instead of just gun go pew while they spend 5 seconds typing something on radio, by which time they won't even be able to say it because of oxy damage.

[glowbold]

Currently, the hyperlink won't work if your PDA is opened to another program. Switching it back isn't very convenient, and in my experience this keeps a significant number of people from actually using them.

Yeah, this is a big issue with it. You've got to be on the HOME page too, not just the apps menu. It's a little annoying, especially since Sec already use their PDAs a lot.

im begging you, please, file bug reports with this level of info when you learn it. fix PR: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21835

[Kotlol]

Against. Due to Chata's good insight.

But I was gainst to begin with since... OH LORD! Death alerts changed... And I like to reitterate...
"You aren't suppose to want to fight security, the button is just another way to say: NO! Don't fight em head on."

I think you need a signal jammer for that. If you want to silently kill security members... jam the signal.
But if you REALLY want to change the alert button.
Make it a device they have to wear and only get the menu option if it's in their Breast pockets or hands.

Sure it might change people to only pick Robust Donuts and Alert button.. but it's what it is.
But now it's a simple device to steal.

OR YEA! Steal their PDA then kill em.

There is COUNTERPLAY TO IT. It's just most antags DO NOT COUNTERPLAY IT.
Security is suppose to be the HARD COUNTER to any antagonist. But traitors got enough tools to fight em.
Other antags not so much like blobs. So why not change them insted?

Like blobs can be moving jamming signals cause of their molecular structure and such.

But we just need to stop "nerfing" security and giving more options to antags.
Nerfing security against 1 type of antag. Is nerfing security vs ALL ANTAGS.

Anyway long topic short.
Give antags more ways to deal with the button or make the button another device to obtain for security.
But do NOT remove it.

[Lord_earthfire]

I'm really a fan of this PR. Sec deathballing is a problem and the easy access of the emergency button unfortunately made it being the first thing sec members do the moment they get into a problem.

Calling over radio gives enough insecurity about your position to make sec members disperse on the search, taking some teeth out of the problem. And once a sec member dies the PDA message gives the correct position anyway.

My point is. You are removing here the last safety net officers can rely upon. If you remove this, you'll just promote secoffs playing as paranoically as possible, and honestly, I wouldn't even be able to blame them for it, because there's no guarantee your body will even exist by the time anyone discovers you might be in trouble.

Oh yeah, the last safety net besides... the AI, clone discs, the captain as additional security member, health implants that show your precise position on death, your gear tracker, and the excess/auxilliary equipment that is available on death that was made harder and harder to access by antags in multiple PR's.

Safety nets are important, but there is also a "too much" as well.

[Lefinch]

I'm fine with the PR but hear me out:

The reasons I like this PR: I think that having a big red button top left socially trains security to make use of that button proactively. The way alerts are non-specific and Security meaning ANY alert is high-priority naturally leads to a strong response (because unlike a janitorial alert, letting someone else respond to it doesn't usually mean more violence and death. usually) which if removed, and this is the really important part: -slightly- reduces training that mentality in from a UI perspective.

That sounds a lot like: I think this will help reduce security deathballs. However, I would argue it's far more nuanced than that. Earthfire has pointed out there's plenty of other methods to provide a the exact same thing. I'll be honest as an AI player I've sat there as an eye-in-the sky and hit that alert before anyone else could (though generally this is more for big gang kickoffs or public violence. Personally try and avoid scuppering stealth takedowns where possible)

I do not think this PR will, if it's a problem, stop security in any way deathballing. I think it's one less direct route to that, but that (again if it's a problem) sounds like something that's probably got more reasons for happening, and probably needs to be looked at beyond the scope of this PR.

However however, to be annoying I have to also say I don't -really- see a problem with security response, at least on RP. The way security responds is already factored in and exploitable: False alerts, signal jams. Getting the AI on-side and getting them to send some false alerts. If Security will chase after imaginary ghosts all at once I believe that to be a socially-exploitable aspect. I also believe that if someone's absolutely intent to making sure I have no chance as an antag: That's going to be a them problem that they'll probably find a way around, and the actual issue to address there is their behaviour, not the mechanisms that enable it.

So in disagreeing unhelpfully with everyone, I manage to say I both like the PR, disagree with why people say they like the PR, and to top it off say that the problem people are stating as their reason to like the PR sounds like a problem to address, while disagreeing that is is a problem. I swear I didn't mean to punch everyone in the toe here I just wanted to read a PR.

[mona]

eh. i'm not sure i super care since i've played without it before and it was mostly just fine then. 

i do think it's worth considering though that sec panic buttons were added in the security assistant PR. that's pretty telling to me, and frankly even though the PDA is a good tool for many things in this game, it's an unoptimized piece of crap that i don't think new players really want to interact with because it's so crungy to navigate. the pr says there's no justification for why it was added but i think it's sort of clear that this was the implicit justification. the pda isn't user-friendly to new players and stubborn ones and a hud button is simpler. for the same reason we have the ticketwriter item AND the ticketwriter app, and why we have security records PCs + the recordtrak AND the security records app. there's a lot of things that have a lot of overlap in this game but some of it is easier and more "tactile" to use and learn for some people, and others might prefer having everything on their PDA which is extremely portable. carb was a good mentor, i think he was sensitive to all of this when making that PR, though i'll welcome anyone else who knows more to weigh in.

and then what other people said, that it's a safety net. it's become a safety net for EVERYONE in sec, which is what i understand everyone has a problem with, but i'm not that interested in kneecapping sec assistants. maybe they get a special PDA module for it and everyone else just gets one without it.

[Lefinch]

really interesting post Mona. I certainly can't argue with the idea that assistants might/would make good emergency whistleblowers, especially for shadowing officers.

[IPingu]

Personally I don't like this.

Antagonists always have the upper hand via being able to make surprise ambushes. It's made fair by the fact you will get a hoard of secoff's chasing you in the next few seconds. I feel that it is right, as the antagonist gets a huge bounty for killing a secoff. Not only by the loot of weaponry and access, but also the possible removal of the secoff from the playing field.

This change doesn't outright remove the reinforcements after the fact, but it makes it considerably easier to prevent it, and in return to obtain a stealthy assasination on a secoff. As you just need to magdump them when nobody is around, thats it, without any cost or punishment other than the bullets and some TC. The oxygen loss will make sure they can't speak, and surely they won't be able to pull out their PDA while in critical health.

With the button existing. You have to spend considerably more time, resources and some luck, to successfully assassinate a secoff without anybody knowing. Which is a considerably bigger payment your spending just to get the secoff's loot and the secoff themselfs, compared to just magdumping them. Meaning you gotta choose between the more risky way which is significantly less time intensive and costly, or the safer option which is the opposite.