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[MERGED PR] Disables antag captains on classic
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About the PR
Disables captains rolling antag on classic, bringing it back in line with RP.

Why's this needed?
After joining yet another round with a rampaging antag captain spawn-killing any secoffs who join, I'm finally convinced a role that spawns with AA, armour and a taser should not be able to roll antag. Also it will hopefully lead to captains being more trusted and therefore responsible (maybe?)


(*)Captains can no longer spawn as antagonist roles.

If the cap is spawn killing secoffs, that sounds like they need to be ahelped
It's a mixture of that but also just a good idea in general, imo. It's kind of weird that the captain can be an antagonist in general.
Hell no. Captain having the chance of being antag is part of the whole thing. It teaches you that you can't trust anyone not even the captain.
Security not being able to roll antag but captain and detective being able to gives a good distinction between them. Shows that captain is NOT sec and detective is also NOT sec.
Besides spawn killing is shitty in general not just because it's the captain doing it. Definitely should have been an Ahelp situation.
I believe RP only allows CONSPIRATOR captain as an antagonist. Though I think that's disabled now.

Considering Goon 1's frantic nature.. I am fine with making the captain be never an antag.. or atleast... a "shitty one"

Also also... if so.... make it something weak like conspirator. Or have it be something like: "Drunken Captain"
Where the captain is too intoxicated to use his gun and thus has to rely on his saber.
I feel that captains will just become an extension of sec with more gear if they can't be an antag. I'm in favour of replacing the cap's energy gun with the saber though.
My main issue with antag cap is just that it's very boring. Its a very strong antag, but strong in ways that arent particularly interesting. Antag engineers can be very strong, but those strengths play into the unique gear of their job, thus making them interesting to deal with. Antag caps are just "Guy with AA, some of the best armor and weapon in the game". There's nothing particularly interesting there.

Im honestly not concerned about this making seccaps more common/easy or whatever. I tend to light sec cap on occasion, I've never experienced any significant pushback while doing this. Seccaps are gonna have the same level of trust even with this change coming through, which is as long as your reasonable people will generally go along with it.
I don't really like the idea of disabling cap antags. In my opinion the cap isn't a trustable person in the same way the det isn't ( I mean there is several references to the cap being corrupt and stealing NT funds on multiple maps ). Plus as people have said there is a pretty high chance that captain will just become sec+ which will make over staffed sec rounds even worse for antags. I am in agreement with Rmeaper though that Egun should be changed out for just the captain's saber, The captain already has the antique they can repair if they really need a gun and the Egun to be honest is just REALLY powerful with the ability to near instantly kill even armored targets at close range if you mag dump them.
Please no only saber I dont want caps primary weapon to be lethal only, wouldn't be super opposed to a lethal fire rate nerf or something (though I wouldn't be for it).
(12-17-2023, 05:52 PM)Ikea Wrote: Please no only saber I dont want caps primary weapon to be lethal only, wouldn't be super opposed to a lethal fire rate nerf or something (though I wouldn't be for it).

You chose between a stun gun that can go lethal.. or a melee weapon that's lethal only.

What do you rather have? One does have a charge problem though.

If I chose, I rather have the saber only...since as a security officer, I won't get downed from swords.

But you can also make it a F-saber. Wich does minor stamina damage and needs to recharge, but doesnt stun.
(12-17-2023, 05:52 PM)Ikea Wrote: Please no only saber I dont want caps primary weapon to be lethal only, wouldn't be super opposed to a lethal fire rate nerf or something (though I wouldn't be for it).

I mean I get why you would not want a lethal only main weapon for cap but one of if not the biggest thing that makes cap antag powerful is the fact he has basically a stronger taser. The ability to stun especially at range is super powerful (Something that I think is not good the quality of the game but that requires a overhaul of the entire combat system and that's not what this is really about) by giving cap only saber it puts him more on par with HoP and CE with how much he starts with if he is a antag.
Feel kind of against it but close to neutral at the same time. Would think maybe it would just be better in long run.

While they do get extra stuff to start off with, if someone is going to be rampaging, there's a good chance they are going to be ending up with stuns and AA anyways. Security headsets are available in crates on the bridge too, which a fair number of antag players are seen going for. It's up to the player to choose what they do with what they have, and not all players choose to rampage. I'm sure there's also many moments where a captain, who by being a traitor, spiced up the round through their role, specifically because of what they have and how that gives a reason for security to chase them, or the captain using others' trust of them in a deceiving way.

Captain being an antag feels a part of the variety of the game, in the jobs that antagonists can appear as. Related, preventing them from being antagonists adds the extra trust to them that feels like it'd be best reserved for Security, to help preserve the uncertainty of who you can trust and the backstabbing that can happen.

Not saying it will happen, maybe not at all, but a possible slope from this, pointed out in #6093, is captains inevitably getting mindhack protection implants because of the extra trust they'd be given

Will admit though antag caps seem to be arrested/demoted in similar fashion across rounds.
i'd love for this to go through, captain antags are wholly uninteresting and the possibility of captain antag negatively impacts captain authority and responsibility

captain should really be treated as a sec or sec-adjacent role anyway given their security access, stun-gun, being the captain of the entire station (it's their jurisdiction and responsibility), and their position in chain of command (if there's no HoS, they're functionally the head of the sec department, and on classic there tends to not be a HoS)

i think the biggest thing though is that captain is a guaranteed role, there is always a captain, and as such having the captain be (mechanically) part of sec means you will always have at least ONE trustworthy crew member on the station whose job is to handle antagonists, which would be very nice for classic given that most rounds have 0-2 security members (including det, who can roll antag lol)
Captain should never be considered security same as HoP should never be playing as security either.
The only time I think it is okay is if there is zero security on station.
This ain't getting us nowhere... the discussion is devolving into "What is a captain?"

To some.. a staff assistant with AA.
To others.... the most trustworthy guy on the station.
To even others..... Just someone who's a slight step above HoP.

IN MY OPINION. What the role of the captain is doesn't matter in the eyes of the community. Let's look at the mechanics and reasons to exist and why an antagonist captain is bad.

1: Has the nuke codes. Wich only has use in 1 game mode where he can NEVER be an antagonist.
2: Has AI access like any head. Nothing differs from any head antagonist in that case.
3: Takes atleast 20 rounds of play to unlock. Unlike the HoS who is suppose to be the TRUE most trustworthy guy on the station and upholding the law, but to play that you gotta be whitelisted. (That process will be touched upon later)
4: Has either a good melee weapon...or an amazing gun. Wich NO OTHER HEAD HAS. The only one who rivals these are the HoS and NTSO. (Not counting detective as they gotta change guns ammo every time, but it's less powerful too.)
5: Has a strong armor wich is one of the most powerful armors in the game at round start.
6: Only head who has SECURITY ACCES from the start and can help open the armory. (thus making him effecitively a security assistant too)

So what makes me think the Captain should not be an antagonist like a traitor? Simply put... it's the fact they have AA as a traitor.
"But HoP can have AA too." ...Yea but the HoP not being in his office will get people who need ID changes or such getting watched at. The captain basically can do nothing all round and be fine... at the same time.. if they are needed the captain has the highest authority (cept for HoS on security matters)
This more RP related but still I'd like to add it.

I still say the detective being an antagonist is WAAAAAAAY more powerful then the captain in the long run for the tool kit the detective has. (Mostly the Det-nets can make security work nightmarish). But the captain is a strong second due the fact they are more prepared for combat.

But it's the fact that.. this guy can be in charge of security if there is no HoS... and that's the underlying problem.
And how do you get to become a HOS? Applying and being white listed and the process requires... some difficulty.Since I applied twice and failed.. wich I am fine with. Also applications take a while to get through and you can only apply over a period of months.
This means one major thing in the game balance.

The guy who we need to truely trust for safety... isn't always there.. yet the captain is.. wich is an "expirenced" player.
While the HoS is a "Trusted" player by admins. But since not everyone wants to always play HoS.. since it's very stressful.. you don't always get those players.
While a captain is more "loosey goosey" and thus more favored.

But I like to add... a captain is one antag of many.. and that's the major problem.
While I think a detective is more powerful as an antagonist with their vr goggles. The captain's AA allows the captain to get anything they need without much eyebrows raised unlike a HoP who gave themselves AA.
If the HoP takes something from the Chief Engie? People will mention it.
Captain taking something from the chief engie? Well he has access so why not?

This is the distinct difference between anyother head vs captain antag. The captain by default isn't odd seeing them in rooms he technically has no business being in there. From my expirences in RP (Im not much of a classic guy).... the captain suddenly vanishing and not talking.. ain't odd. But hey he can't be antag there.

But with antag captains on the loose while other antags can do their stuff... it basically is worst then a detective going rampaging. The captain is heavier armed... has better starting utility and can hide in any room where security cannot wander in.. where as a detective has less acces then your standard security officer.

Anyway... I said enough in this super long post. I think the point is... nerfing captain as an antagonist or removing them from the list all together is fine.
And yes it is great for trust atomsphere.... I like to add that the captain is also the biggest target for most antagonists cause of the AA and PDA.
And in my opinion... Antags want to murder the captain and him being one... it just makes antags less likely to go after him...

That said.. give more use for the "Authitcation disk" so other antags want it cept Nukies!

"Captain should never be considered security same as HoP should never be playing as security either.
The only time I think it is okay is if there is zero security on station."

As someone who was a detective on RP as the only security and being an antagonist... yea I couldn't do it. Imagine your only security being the ANTAGONIST.
Now imagine that antagonist being THE CAPTAIN and ONLY SECURITY.
It is so heavily one sided it ain't funny.... So this more leaning towards: "Reasons why we cannot have an antagonist captain"

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