RP, chaos and antag density

[Lord_earthfire]

Kinda since some time i am looking at the antag/crew/security interaction on RP and found a few patterns that kinda leave a sour taste in my opinion:

• The energency shuttle is almost never called early. The times it happens it very often comes down to admin shenanigans or rogue AI's/mass bombing
  
• Security has the tendency to "deathball", meaning having 3-4 secoffs running to antag-related occurrence st once.
  
• Departments, if they are not targeted by antags, very often does not get involved at all in antag-related activity.
  
• Departments very often suceed in shovimg amtag activity towards security and are able to stop caring about what actually be a station-wide concern
  
• Even worse, multiple secoff players voiced to be highly discouraged to use tools provided by the station to them
  
• Rough rounds comes down less to antag activity, but more often to self-antagging or shuttle chaos
  
• People die so rarely that borging is highly discouraged and the cloner is stocked up very regulary 
  

All these things can be attributed to a common cause:

Currently, antags don't provide enough difficulties to everyone on the station to sufficiently challenge the station.

Securities attention isn't split enough, departments can ignore antags, damage gets repaired extraordinary fast, medbay us stuffed at minute 15 with pent acid, omnizine and fluorodecalin.

We got very good players in engineering, catering, medbay and security. Science does not give out artifacts or deadly chems nilly-willy.

And the antags play differently in comparison to classic:

• Silent killers (e.g  changelings) play out their kills much longer. It is rare to see a changeling go over 5 kills
  
• On RP, antags tend to pull off less deadly gimmicks, like going fishing in the armory or making fighting tournaments
  
• Some antags prepare for really long time. It isnt uncommon to see antags prepare 50 minutes. Thus means antag activity is concentrated in the end if the round (i am guilty of this regulary)
  
• We got a good amount of "fun" antags, that means antags that are a nuissance and do cute fun that does add sand to the gears, but does not disrupt it.
  
• Friendly antags are rather often occuring on RP
  
• People are anxious about taking other people out of the game by killing them for... reasons, i guess?
  

What this means is antags on RP often take themselves out of the equation.


That is why, looking at these things, i think RP can need more antags. Make antag activity be the cause of rough rounds. Make the shuttle come early. Force security more often to deputize the station or call for help.

Thats my opinion about this. That's why i would adk for a discussion about this.

[Frolicsome Flufficorn]

As a classic player, I dont see any of these issues happening on classic. its rare for medbay to go above and beyond and most antags are never friendly and just nuckle down and do their antag role. Im not saying RP is bad because of escalation but, I have a feeling that the main reason antags dont do much is because they are scared of not escalating enough. and it takes alot of time to do that. so it would be expected that a changeling, vamp etc dont really get many because its discouraged to the point where people might be scared of getting alot of absorbs/blood etc. Idk just my opinion from a classic POV.

and its crazy to me that people prepare for 50 minutes? shuttle is often called at 45-50 minutes on 75% of rounds. most antags only take 10-15 minutes to prepare

[Thebutler]

As a classic player, I dont see any of these issues happening on classic. its rare for medbay to go above and beyond and most antags are never friendly and just nuckle down and do their antag role. Im not saying RP is bad because of escalation but, I have a feeling that the main reason antags dont do much is because they are scared of not escalating enough. and it takes alot of time to do that. so it would be expected that a changeling, vamp etc dont really get many because its discouraged to the point where people might be scared of getting alot of absorbs/blood etc. Idk just my opinion from a classic POV.

and its crazy to me that people prepare for 50 minutes? shuttle is often called at 45-50 minutes on 75% of rounds. most antags only take 10-15 minutes to prepare

The only thing I can think of that would need 40 to maybe 50 minutes of preparation is either a nuclear charge or a Max cap canbomb

[Lord_earthfire]

and its crazy to me that people prepare for 50 minutes? shuttle is often called at 45-50 minutes on 75% of rounds. most antags only take 10-15 minutes to prepare

Well, on RP people tend to overprepare and go for the eye as well. Building rooms, doing hellsplices, setting everything up meticilously. Or stuff like getting enough money for the syndicate command armor, getting gear, stam mixes and then have a 10 minute buildup over the coms. All these things are not out the ordinary.

On the other hand you have spiefs decked out with enough weaponry to start 3 rampages and running around unsure what to do with it

[Kotlol]

and its crazy to me that people prepare for 50 minutes? shuttle is often called at 45-50 minutes on 75% of rounds. most antags only take 10-15 minutes to prepare

Well, on RP people tend to overprepare and go for the eye as well. Building rooms, doing hellsplices, setting everything up meticilously. Or stuff like getting enough money for the syndicate command armor, getting gear, stam mixes and then have a 10 minute buildup over the coms. All these things are not out the ordinary.

On the other hand you have spiefs decked out with enough weaponry to start 3 rampages and running around unsure what to do with it

I once had a round where I became the only security member as the detective... I knew who the culprit was and approached the arcfiend when they were about to go arcfiending. Well I "meta" knew it was them. I was RP, so I saw them and asked: "hey what are you doing? It's dangerous around here."

Before I could even typed it.. they had enough power to knock me out and murder me within seconds. Took my stuff and went rampage mode since they knew there was no one gonna stop em. 

The problem with RP Antags is the fact they want to be a driving force for the round and that's a lot of pressure. But they can't just silently bomb and murder people in classic as it's heavily discouraged. Also since most antags try to talk it out.

Also since there is more leeway for antags. Security doesn't execute them after 1 murder or crime.

What I truely think the RP community needs is the following.
- Allow more LOOC to plan out things. (we once planned a drug bust on botany (who wasn't antag) as captain and security LOOC since I as captain banned it. Didn't come to it since an antag started rampaging. But damn if we weren't all hyped to those involved!)
- Discourage validhunting and vigilantism more. (I have been hunted by staffies who caught me being an antag without doing a crime and started to murder me. It's not fun for an antag to ask security to defend them from vigilantism.)
- Longer jail times. (We need more jail RP. Personally if I am a traitor or changeling or such.. I will LOOC security to put me in jail as a "dangerous criminal" and revovle the round around keeping me in jail like Stirstir while I try to bust out, make illegal deals and such.
- Encourage more interaction with other departments. (Be lax on the rules or be strict on them.. but in the right way. Not by saying: "No I won't since it might blow upt the station." But go: "No... you don't have the permit or paperwork!" Allowing an antag to maybe falisify documents.)
- Do not rat out an antagonist at the 1st bit. (Allow interaction and be bribable)
- Do not kill witnesses right away. (Pretty much the last one but in reverse, allow witnesses to escape or make a deal or threaten them!)

And maybe...just maybe... 
- Allow antags to spawn as a random charater as a new antag insted of just sleeper agents. (I mean they can spawn as antag critters but maybe people will feel more encouraged to antag and die antaging if they can respawn as one after dieing... I am not saying: "You die as a changeling and respawn as one" but more like: "You die a changeling, you rejoin as a random staffy with antag priveledges (aka a spawnable sleeper). This way I think people will take more risks since if they die. They can still antag after but on a lesser level.)

[Cal]

As a classic player, I dont see any of these issues happening on classic.

This thread is about RP.

its rare for medbay to go above and beyond and most antags are never friendly and just nuckle down and do their antag role.

Antags are friendly ALL THE TIME on Classic.

I have a feeling that the main reason antags dont do much is because they are scared of not escalating enough.

It's as easy as saying "I'm going to kill you!" and then you attack them if you please.

people prepare for 50 minutes? shuttle is often called at 45-50 minutes on 75% of rounds. most antags only take 10-15 minutes to prepare

This is a feature of RP. The rounds are long and mostly free of chaos. This is on purpose. An antagonist can easily cause chaos if they like.



All of these things you listed are normal for RP. Why would Botany for example be dealing with an antagonist? If they need to defend themselves of course they have chainsaws, but Security dealing with antagonists is... normal. You'd call Security for an issue like someone attacking you.

We HAD more antags on RP, the rounds were busy and people weren't able to RP. We don't want RP to be classic-lite. We want people to actually be able to relax and do a small story.

All of this imo simply chalks up to playstyle. People on RP want to roleplay, so they set things up. It happens.

[According_tome]

It is mostly culture thing. Shuttle is called late because most of the time destructive stuff happens lategame in rp or autocall. I think it is mostly nice to have some place to chill and think calmly about your next gimmick. Classic puts more pressure on you since shuttle is mostly called around 45 50 mins or an hour tops. Escalation isn't bad thing it adds flavor and I gotta say rp is mostly about flavor which adds alot. I had great moments In both rp and classic, I had great moments for mostly different reasons. It is more like if you are tired from the rushing in classic etc you can pay a visit to rp to chill and think about your next move. ic occ thats up to you, rp server rule don't even put pressure on you as long as your actions are consistent(to some degree). Gotta say I favor little more extreme events in rp I think it lacks that so I play on classic when I feel like that.

[Dhaidburt]

I understand where you're coming from here, especially with the medbay example. There's PLENTY of rounds on rp where nothing happens in there for a good HOUR and you're sitting around twiddling your thumbs after the first wave of clonescans and medicine setup.

But, that's not where gameplay needs to be added. It's something that I'm trying to get myself to learn, but that's where RP is best suited. Chat up your coworkers, order some food from the chef or drinks from the bar, interact with the round outside of just your job. You're so focused on being in medbay (because people autopath there when they're hurt and cannot see doctors outside of medbay) that you forget there's things to do outside of medbay. I'm the same way with mining or cargo.

[Silent Majority]

generally the thing is we don't WANT limitless chaos on rp. Because its RP. we have classic for that. RP gives us a variety pack of antags for them to be able to drive and move the story, for us to creat elittle episodes and vingettes and stuff. its why security on RP tends to let antags go as well, sometimes multiple times, till they do something 'big', so we can have the 'story' payoff.

[Lord_earthfire]

We HAD more antags on RP, the rounds were busy and people weren't able to RP. We don't want RP to be classic-lite. We want people to actually be able to relax and do a small story.

generally the thing is we don't WANT limitless chaos on rp. Because its RP. we have classic for that. RP gives us a variety pack of antags for them to be able to drive and move the story, for us to creat elittle episodes and vingettes and stuff. its why security on RP tends to let antags go as well, sometimes multiple times, till they do something 'big', so we can have the 'story' payoff.

I think there is a in-between absolute chaos and "feels like extended 80% of the time", which is often the case when you got 5 antags on med to med-high pop and like 7 security members (granted, secass and hos included).
Edit: like i just saw a round we had 3 antags, 2 secass, 2 secoffs, 1 detective, 1 hos and 1 ntso...

Having antags equal to security in numbers could, in my opinion, help. Likewise, too many antags on too few security isnt good either. But i think then we are talking about a bigger rework on how antag amount is rolled. I think especially late-joining antag rolls could be more dynamic to react to a creeping up imbalance.

The problem with RP Antags is the fact they want to be a driving force for the round and that's a lot of pressure. But they can't just silently bomb and murder people in classic as it's heavily discouraged. Also since most antags try to talk it out.

There lies the one thought behind it: its a big amount of pressure, and it can be reduced by distributing it between more people.

[Kotlol]

There lies the one thought behind it: its a big amount of pressure, and it can be reduced by distributing it between more people.

Hard disagree... more antags does the opposite.
For group antags like conspirators and salvagers.. it's fine.

But for traitors/changelings and such.. it's bad. Heck these days conspirators have a changeling/vampire/arcfiend around.
And remember one thing.. antags can fight eachother and kill eachother.

An example would be: "Antag A wants to blow up the station. But Antag B wants to take over the station and take all the profit." The two are against eachother.
While antag vs antag can be fun. Imaging increasing antag numbers where antags are trying to kill eachother each round.

As someone who had changelings sting eachother, vampires and changlings fighting eachother. This is often an issue.

Also there is something called the "antag courtesy."
If I am an antagonist I tend to wait till I know who could be a fellow antagonist and not UPSTAGE EM.
There is nothing more frustrating then two antagonists doing their own things and security having to deal with both... it makes both encounters less.
So most antags who have grant plans... wait till someone else goes 1st then go later.

This is why 80% of RP rounds feel like extended. Antags are trying to learn who their fellow antags are. Since antags can betray eachother without knowing...
Heck one of my grand plans was ruined cause an antag blew it up. Another was ruined due to another antag attacking security and he ran straight past me.
If you have a grand plan where you want most of the station to get involved... other antags are an OBSTACLE!

So imagine all these factors... any moment your plan could be seen by another antag and they decide to steal it or blow it up.
Another antag might kill you for some reason. A traitor can mindhack you. (Oh lord does that happen a lot and it's awkward!)
Another antag can sabotage the power and mess with your grand machine plan.
Another antag can subsume the AI, making it impossible for you to do anything but fight them back.
So what happens if you increase the numbers of antags? More antags get in eachothers way... More antags will wait to their turn... more antags will end up murdering eachother... 

So no.. what we need more is a security net for antags so in case they get tragically murdered but their plans are intact? They can come back and complete it.
Unlike crew members who can be cloned... antags do not have that luxury... AND THAT IS THE BIGGEST REASON THEY ARE PASSIVE IN RP!

You are the driving round.. but if you die... ooh well... the round becomes boring until Sleepers spawn who suddenly have to go from doing a shift to doing an evil plan.
But if you could continune your evil plan after death? Liike a back up agent? That would be much better no? 
Cloning for Antags specifically.

[Silent Majority]

I personally kinda don't like NTSC on RP. but that is personal opinion. Secrity allready runs a bit high as-is

[ZodiaDecius]

The only complaints I have from recent RP rounds [mainly play on 3] from an antag point of view is that lately we have a lot of players who aren't security valid hunting, namely a lot of MDirs, bored AIs watching people like hawks, and the longer the shift has gone on with nothing, the more likely a "deathball" as you put it is to occur.

From a security standpoint. Sometimes you can only go so many circles around Donut before you're waiting for ANYTHING to happen.

The general sentiment I have gotten in the discord over "slow not fun antag rounds" which is when the antag doesn't kill much but leads security on wild goose chases, is frowned upon by the players, with most of them wanting "a fight" [I.E. a wire crawling arcfiend/doppelganger wizard]

Ultimately you can't ask antags to compromise their rounds early for the sake of other people.

As far as solutions go

Validhunting needs to be curbed again, for sure. There have been moments [a lot recently] where not a single crime has been done and people are yelling on the comes "gangs!" Like it's classic.

That's just my 2c

Bad Tim/Follows the Trail/Teef and Bones

[Kotlol]

I do notice a HEAVY direction to Validhunting certain antags.

We once had a wraith who was appearing to well "scare" people but like 5 people were smacking them.
Where even the security had to say: "Yea don't do this"

I seen people kill a disarmed antag cause antag. Don't get me wrong.. I get you want to fight the antag when they are around.. but don't... then roll security.
If you may only fight in self defense. Technically when you see an antagonist with a gun out.. Don't chase em.

Heck I once fought a gang war by myself as another gang member and won cause.. everyone went in gun's blazing and getting eachothers way.
This is the same with antag fighting.

Also security shouldn't murder the antag right away...that's just poor security playing.

[KingMorshu]

I'm a little late to the party, but as a mostly secmain I can probably weigh in a little bit here. Granted, whatever I say here is from the perspective of Goon 4, since that's pretty much the only place I play these days. I'll go over the points here:

The energency shuttle is almost never called early. The times it happens it very often comes down to admin shenanigans or rogue AI's/mass bombing

I like this and think it fits RP. I don't think the "goal" of a round should be the shuttle getting called early, it should more be about a story being told. An Antag can tell a great story without mass destruction, or with it. It comes down to the good story.

Security has the tendency to "deathball", meaning having 3-4 secoffs running to antag-related occurrence st once.

I do see this happen, but honestly, if antag chooses to escalate that far, it sometimes takes that many people to pose a challenge to them. I've had my fair share of rounds that it took all of security to even mount a challenge, and sometimes they still get away with it...which either way, is a great story playing out!

Departments, if they are not targeted by antags, very often does not get involved at all in antag-related activity.

Departments very often suceed in shovimg amtag activity towards security and are able to stop caring about what actually be a station-wide concern

As others have said, this makes sense to me from an RP perspective. Unless it's spilling over into their department, the department is targeted, or indeed, the entire station is at risk, it makes sense for folks to stay in their lane. Oftentimes, upon speaking with other departments when I make the rounds as security, they have their own RP and little stories playing out. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't be interrupted, but it would make sense they would choose not to get involved.

Even worse, multiple secoff players voiced to be highly discouraged to use tools provided by the station to them

I haven't so much seen this issue on 4. Perhaps this is more of a thing on 3. I don't discourage anyone from using their tools so long as it's proper escalation, and I don't think I've witnessed anyone else doing so.

Rough rounds comes down less to antag activity, but more often to self-antagging or shuttle chaos

Same here, I don't tend to see a lot of this and when it does happen, it tends to get handled very quickly, (security or admins).

Currently, antags don't provide enough difficulties to everyone on the station to sufficiently challenge the station.

I would respectfully have to disagree on this, although maybe it is again the server difference. There are mostly antags who get insanely creative and it oftentimes takes a coordinated effort to stop them, if we do in fact even succeed in stopping them.

That is why, looking at these things, i think RP can need more antags. Make antag activity be the cause of rough rounds. Make the shuttle come early. Force security more often to deputize the station or call for help.

Respectfully again, imo, I believe this is the wrong approach and idea of RP. I don't see the goal of RP as the antag bringing the entire station down around everyone's ears and mass chaos everywhere. It's about good stories playing out, which sometimes could very well very be the result of mass chaos. But it can also mean a story playing out in the bar, with two old buddies reminiscing about the good old days. It could be security officers bonding or offering a self defense class to the crew. Maybe there is a station accident and it's large enough everyone gets involved and pitches in, or it could be as simple as holding a service in the chapel for the fallen with candles (which I try to do every shift, which has inspired RP from people that is still going on!) This is the RP aspect I love about Goon so much...it's all about the story. Sometimes it's many small stories going on, sometimes it's a big one with lots involved, sometimes chaotic, sometimes not.