[MERGED PR] Health implants no longer send the coords of the implantee.

[Wisemonster]

I like the idea of adding a small delay to it, but one thing I'd rather see is the removal of the location of the officer and the crit message. Just a death alert with the officer's name, and no location, would be good. "AI track Dingus McSecoff!" which is responded to with "They're not on cameras" is spooky. One by one death messages to instill terror and all that. It would also promote cutting cameras if you're doing crimes in busier places.

I think I'm gonna move the direction of the pr in this way. Although, I may need to also change the base medical implant, otherwise sec could just rush to med and get a health implant.

[Frank_Stein]

I like the idea of adding a small delay to it, but one thing I'd rather see is the removal of the location of the officer and the crit message. Just a death alert with the officer's name, and no location, would be good. "AI track Dingus McSecoff!" which is responded to with "They're not on cameras" is spooky. One by one death messages to instill terror and all that. It would also promote cutting cameras if you're doing crimes in busier places.

Very much this. Also puts more responsibility on Sec to communicate ahead of time.

"Hey, found something weird over by crew quarters, I'm going to check it out"

[ImJustAStrangeMan]

I am interested in the idea of how a delay would promote more communication. I think that is something that is worth looking into. I don't know how I feel about removing the location because it often feels like it's still difficult to find a dead officer even with all the information we get. Also if the location is removed, then good luck finding an officer in space.

EDIT: I would say I am on the fence about removing the location. I think any of these changes should get a few test rounds.

[Cheffie]

I think removing the location is a good change, it still promotes use of communication telling security where you are going and also use of both pinpointers and disks. But i do think they should give you an idea of what z-level the body is on.

Current implants just makes it very hard for antagonists to kill security.

[babayetu83]

I like the idea of adding a small delay to it, but one thing I'd rather see is the removal of the location of the officer and the crit message. Just a death alert with the officer's name, and no location, would be good. "AI track Dingus McSecoff!" which is responded to with "They're not on cameras" is spooky. One by one death messages to instill terror and all that. It would also promote cutting cameras if you're doing crimes in busier places.

Very much this. Also puts more responsibility on Sec to communicate ahead of time.

"Hey, found something weird over by crew quarters, I'm going to check it out"

yeah now it's going to just turn into "Hey, found something weird over by crew quarters, I'm going to check it out. btw my coordinates are xyz" which personally i find to be a level of boring clunk to have to check that is solved by the current implementation of the implant

[Kotlol]

I think this topic has gotten from "Nerf sec and get more communication" to "Is this basicly a QoL downgrade?"

Remember.... some things are the way they are for QoL.
Let's say the implant is removed. Then every security officer will harras medbay for one.
Cause it was standard.

If we change it.. what will security do? Chatter more.. or die alone. Wich already can happen.
Removing Location will only make the radio chatter on security more cluttered or annoy security players.
Trust me when I say this... in the 1st weeks Antags can murder security safely since they aren't used to it.. but after that.. it will just be constant radio chatter and bothering the AI.

Infact... I know WHAT security will do to change this. Pinpointers will be used more to find bodies.. but also.. Security wil hog Space GPS's.
Cause that way other officers can track their Space GPS and find their body or where ever their SPACE GPS is.
Adding a new resources normal people will not have, cause security needs it to track their own.

This is why this PR is so hard to change. If we don't... Antags will have to work uber fast and careful. Maybe use strong tools like signal blockers to avoid detection (wich I recommend).
But... if we change it.. Security will find other ways to get their QoL back and that means stealing tools from departments or hogging resources. Wich Security is already well known for...
How many security members go to medbay to grab a mender or such ever since the 1st aid kit got removed? Ooh wait everyone does it....

So remove or change the implant will just force security to bother others to avoid this stuff.
Insted I recommend easier ways to turn off or block the implant rather then changing it.

Traitors/Spiefs can obtain tools to work against it, but Changelings, Vamps and Arcfiends are SoL, especially when they have to be stealthy at the start.
Of course I didn't mention the more rampage heavy antags.. cause let's face it.. they are ALREADY being loud.
So if we simply give changelings, vamps and Arcfiends a way to "shut down" the implants for kills. It would make security getting offed in secret much better.

I can see Arcfiends shortcircuiting the implant and Changelings using an injections to "melt" implants. Vampires... I wouldn't know what they would do to disable implants.

[Zamujasa]

My opinion is that if you don't want people to find a body, then don't leave the body around to be found. If you know you're going after security, extremely valuable targets with extremely valuable gear (as evidenced by them being the prime target of mindhacks), then you need to git gud, or even better, find other targets to harass and murder.

buy a signal jammer, space them, cut out the implant, do whatever. but security should be hard to kill and take down. that's their job. their job is literally to stop you, the bad guy.

[Retrino]

hard agree with zamu, it is not hard whatsoever to just move the body away from its death location if you really dont want it to be found. if all youre doing them is spacing them and moving on, thats on you. if you kill them and loot the body on the same location, then you should expect to be confronted. the different z levels are huge and make recovering someone without coords or a specific landmark next to impossible, and with how easy it is to just stun someone and chuck them into some random direction out of an airlock, this pr seems very anti qol. it not only is a nerf to sec, but an unneeded one to med as well

[Froggit_Dogget]

I like the idea of adding a small delay to it, but one thing I'd rather see is the removal of the location of the officer and the crit message. Just a death alert with the officer's name, and no location, would be good. "AI track Dingus McSecoff!" which is responded to with "They're not on cameras" is spooky. One by one death messages to instill terror and all that. It would also promote cutting cameras if you're doing crimes in busier places.

yesyesyesyes this would be soo good. encourages the buddy system but then theres only half the ground covered by sec.. and you know its bad if a buddy pair gets taken out.

[Kotlol]

My opinion is that if you don't want people to find a body, then don't leave the body around to be found. If you know you're going after security, extremely valuable targets with extremely valuable gear (as evidenced by them being the prime target of mindhacks), then you need to git gud, or even better, find other targets to harass and murder.

buy a signal jammer, space them, cut out the implant, do whatever. but security should be hard to kill and take down. that's their job. their job is literally to stop you, the bad guy.

This however I agree with. While I suggested special "implant" destructions for changelings, arcfiends and vampires. These would be obtained from killing OTHERS 1st aka, enough blood/DNA/Power.

But if you really want to kill sec.. you better have a plan. Cause the moment you do something wrong.. Security WILL be on your ass.

[Wisemonster]

This however I agree with. While I suggested special "implant" destructions for changelings, arcfiends and vampires. These would be obtained from killing OTHERS 1st aka, enough blood/DNA/Power.

Arcfiends can already block sec's implant if they use the jamming field before critting/killing them. As for changelings and vamps, they do not currently have access to a way to directly deal with the implants, outside of removing them through surgery.

[Kotlol]

This however I agree with. While I suggested special "implant" destructions for changelings, arcfiends and vampires. These would be obtained from killing OTHERS 1st aka, enough blood/DNA/Power.

Arcfiends can already block sec's implant if they use the jamming field before critting/killing them. As for changelings and vamps, they do not currently have access to a way to directly deal with the implants, outside of removing them through surgery.

Ah so only vamp and changeling. Vamp can use "a way" to do surgery on the sec user. Cause they can knock em out and drag them away to remove said implant.
The changeling on RP can too... but the classic one? Nope!

Eitherway while I think you shouldn't actively kill security and if you wanna do it , you gotta plan and be able to use tools on them to make sure no one finds out.
I am still fine with giving the vampire and changeling a more direct way of dealing with them, considering they are STEALTH killers to begin with but not something they can do right away.

Otherwise I still think you should just avoid dealing with Security at all.

[Zamujasa]

the biggest thing for me in this thread is that people have to realize that anyone in security is the #2 target on the station for murder because of their gear and access (the #1 being the captain themselves). if you are trying to take on security, you are taking on, literally, the exact people who are supposed to stop you. it should not be easily done.

in this way i think it is pretty well balanced already.

lings can also fuck with security via their neuro and dna sings. stun them, take all their gear, change your identity. you don't have to kill someone to remove most of their ability to be a threat.



one unstated thing also is that you can just as easily use those alerts to set up an ambush. if you put Jony Sec into crit in the observatory, but otherwise in a way they can't do anything -- buckled to a chair, blindfolded or muzzled or otherwise kept from simply outing you -- wait for the rescue party to show up and launch a surprise ambush when they're busy trying to assist the downed guy.

there are a ton of ways to go about it. taking on security directly should be a mistake.

[Silent Majority]

That is actually said better then I think I was trying to word. Security is supposed to be hard. Are antags are supposed to be deadly. Its sorta the mix we have.

And I think i talked about this in another topic..

The other thing that happens of you make being solo more dangerous and easier to fail then it allready is would be; sec would adjust to traveling in packs and killing to avoid risk possible death

[Cheffie]

one unstated thing also is that you can just as easily use those alerts to set up an ambush. if you put Jony Sec into crit in the observatory, but otherwise in a way they can't do anything -- buckled to a chair, blindfolded or muzzled or otherwise kept from simply outing you -- wait for the rescue party to show up and launch a surprise ambush when they're busy trying to assist the downed guy.

there are a ton of ways to go about it. taking on security directly should be a mistake.

I feel like this is a flawed way to think about this, ambushing security without overwhelming force or stun weapons will probably still result in the person you trying to ambush winning. Especially if you rely on health alerts which will bring most if not all of the security team to you.
Not to mention with on demand alerts and the shear strength of stun weapons making getting someone in a position like that in the first place too much effort and risk to bother with, unless its solely for RP.

And even if there is no location on alerts, there are security disks and pinpointers to allow for location of stolen gear (along with the person who stole it) or missing bodies. And if all else fails there are tokens for more gear in the armoury.