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Validhunting, Supercops, and You
#16
(01-22-2023, 12:12 PM)weezerfan2001 Wrote:
(01-22-2023, 05:23 AM)Kotlol Wrote:
(01-21-2023, 06:14 PM)weezerfan2001 Wrote: What is validhunting? I don't know too many ooc terms frown

Like most games where you can kill fellow players like Among Us or G-mod's Trouble in Terrorist Town....
Some players try to use their game knowledge to find the killers and take em out the round asap on several contextual clues.

Like in Among Us, player hanging too close to another, then hitting the emergency button and getting them ejected before a body is discovered.
These players will basicly NOT do their task and try to "reveal the killer" 100% despite not having the role to find the killer.

It's especially annoying on Space Station 13 as rounds can last up to a hour on classic and 1:30 on RP.
So if a Validhunter removes an antagonist from play before they do ANYTHING antagonistic. (And remove means kill)
That player litterly got nothing to do due to a Valid Hunter.

Ever had a round where NOTHING happens, but yet 4 antagonists were around, but not doing anything?
Most likely a Validhunter killed em...or forced them to hide.

Security does Validhunt too, but security is kinda "made" to respond to antagonists.
But ti's not fun when the Bartender comes to your lair and starts shooting you with their shotgun and beating you to death, before you could even do a thing.
THATS THE ANNOYANCE OF VALID HUNTING.
Atleast Security arrests you... Validhunters will KILL you.

damn that sucks, idek how people find fun in that sorta gameplay. SMH
On the point about nothing happening, it is also highly likely that the antags don't want to antag and are just sitting around doing nothing or just being normal crewmembers. These are the types to yell validhunting when they are treated like antags. The other things on the list RARELY happen, at least on classic.
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#17
Security doesn't always valid hunt. On rp, and classic, sec culture is usually letting the antag start so we can fight them. We are there because we basically are the hazzard to the goal. Non sec crew might not attack or might be erratic. Other than the rare captain combat most crew only opportunistically attack non major antags (Chaplain non withstanding), but security is often the litmus test of evil.

Security "culture" of goon is fairly different compared to alot og other code bases, where sec is more coded to be red shirts, because our antags are meant to he solo. On, for example, TG, antags are meant to team up. A good comparison is out Csaber vs their Esaber. They both cost a similar amount. The csaber of goon deflects any ranged, kills in 3. The e Saber has a chance to block, rarely deflects, and only against energy. And deals 30. They have a more expensive upgraded version one that still does less damage and doesn't guarantee blocks. Our antag pistols guarantee desth without medic attention in 2 shots. Our wizards with a quarter of the spells are 4x as deadly.

Because our antags are designed to be slaughter beasts, our sec is designed to be strong and incentivezed to be smart. A team of all hos players could still suffer potentially devastating losses from a week old player with a couple empngrenades sun glasses and revolver.

Becsuse this balance is so tight(secs capabilities vs antags lethality) it means that outside interference can ruin their shot. The same guy who might be able to waste sec on fairly simple plays could still be one shot with a random staffie in mech boots with telepot crystal bows.

There's not an easy fix other then to try to remember killing thr spief with a mustache grenade and pizxa cutter to his namr may be an easy win. Killing the spief with 4 orions and stimpacks feels awesome. But in the end, both can be valid. But letting the antag have s chance to do their thing is usually more fun
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#18
Basicly put, Valid hunting is play to WIN, not play to have fun.
And most Valid hunters also pick their job to valid hunt, rather then do the job.

I don't think we can add more to these complaints.

But give the advice of.. if you are a Traitor, Changeling, Vampire, Spy/thief, Werewolf (not changed), Arcfiend... always get securities attention to interact and have fun.
But...
When you are a wizard, nuke ops, blob, flockmind, wraith and such. You are going to be bothered and hunted by crew since you are basicly one of those antags that needs to be stopped ASAP. Also you are kinda obivious and can only be stopped by being killed, though Nuke ops have a chance of being arrested and interrogated for the nuke and the wizard just having his crap being taken.
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#19
"Valid hunting" is a hard line to walk because if you go too far in the "antags need to have an opposing force" direction you end up with no-fun-allowed validhunters who magdump at the sight of someone carrying contraband, and if you go too far in the other direction you end up with the trademarked goon 1 apathy where nobody gives a shit that one antag has depopulated half of the station

i don't think it's a serious problem at the moment from the rounds i've been watching
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#20
i dont know, apathy to the point of not caring if half the station is gone due to one person popping off is kind of worrisome
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#21
(01-24-2023, 08:04 PM)babayetu83 Wrote: i dont know, apathy to the point of not caring if half the station is gone due to one person popping off is kind of worrisome

This is particularly the case on Classic, where crewmember teamwork is scarce. Heck, the other day two antags teamed up and wiped out a huge chunk of the station single-handedly with a wrestling belt and port-a-puke, and they were never stopped. (Granted, they were VERY robust traitors, but still, they killed, like, at least 20 people with that port-a-puke, maybe more.) I've also seen two people having a conversation about not getting involved with fighting a changeling while said changeling was in horror form and actively eating someone in the same room - which, admittedly, was probably just to make a joke, but it sort of illustrates the Classic attitude.

The culture is very much one of issues on the station being "not my problem" unless they are actively disrupting your department. You might hear screams from maintenance, turn to your buddies and say "ah, it's probably nothing to worry about," and I guarantee you nobody will check up on those screams. I suppose the apathy comes from the quick rounds and limited per-round investment. People see things devolving into madness and throw their hands into the air because they know that the next round will come soon enough, and they can start over again. People are also quick to run rather than fight because some folks on these servers are FAR more robust than most crewmembers by virtue of experience, and people understandably don't like dying. They just want to get their Spacebux at the end of the shift and be able to try again.

I guess, if we wanted to change this, we could look into encouraging more teamwork between departments and regular crewmembers on Goon through the addition and modification of game features. But it's not my place to say what direction the game should go in - this is a community space after all.
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#22
(01-24-2023, 08:04 PM)babayetu83 Wrote: i dont know, apathy to the point of not caring if half the station is gone due to one person popping off is kind of worrisome

if anything that is the goon 1 environment, and while i agree it isn't ideal, it is what it is

there isn't really a way to force people to give a shit about other people, as it turns out
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#23
IMO one thing that would help is an understanding between robust antags to preferentially go after the "not my problem" people, although admittedly it's hard to tell who they are in advance.  Right now, intervening has a good chance of ending your round early and ignoring has a good chance of letting you play longer - if we intentionally put our finger on the scale there we may have a chance of changing how people respond.
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#24
if you're an antag going for body count (which is generally what causes these discussions) you are likely already going after the least robust people, because that lets you kill more. it's just that nobody gives a shit, because intervening directly makes you more likely to be a target

this has been an ongoing cultural problem since as long as i've been playing. it shifts and changes over time but there are always reasons people don't do it
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#25
(01-25-2023, 11:26 AM)Zamujasa Wrote: if you're an antag going for body count (which is generally what causes these discussions) you are likely already going after the least robust people, because that lets you kill more. it's just that nobody gives a shit, because intervening directly makes you more likely to be a target

this has been an ongoing cultural problem since as long as i've been playing. it shifts and changes over time but there are always reasons people don't do it

If people don't wanna fight the antag and die, then not come back since clonebay was blown up... makes unwilling to do something.
While I think the dead system in general is a great mix of interacting and "Not wanting to die"

You could say: "Well we could reward players trying to fight the antag"
But then we increase validhunting...

We could say: "Well give more fun ways to come back from the dead."
But that might be a way for players to die so they can have these fun ways. (Aka Kudzu people beomcing super botanists, Love it, but it was still a "fun way to die and come back")

If I would suggest a change... Go Red Dwarf style holograms.
If someone dies...then can decide to activate the "emergency hologram" of themselves.
Wich essentially is a "Borg/ghost" version of themselves.... I'll write it down as a sily suggestion for now. But I think we hade enough derailing this topic. If anything.. we should start a new topic on the "Meh not gonna bother" attitude of Goon1.
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#26
(01-25-2023, 12:29 PM)Kotlol Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 11:26 AM)Zamujasa Wrote: if you're an antag going for body count (which is generally what causes these discussions) you are likely already going after the least robust people, because that lets you kill more. it's just that nobody gives a shit, because intervening directly makes you more likely to be a target

this has been an ongoing cultural problem since as long as i've been playing. it shifts and changes over time but there are always reasons people don't do it

If people don't wanna fight the antag and die, then not come back since clonebay was blown up... makes unwilling to do something.
While I think the dead system in general is a great mix of interacting and "Not wanting to die"

You could say: "Well we could reward players trying to fight the antag"
But then we increase validhunting...

We could say: "Well give more fun ways to come back from the dead."
But that might be a way for players to die so they can have these fun ways. (Aka Kudzu people beomcing super botanists, Love it, but it was still a "fun way to die and come back")

If I would suggest a change... Go Red Dwarf style holograms.
If someone dies...then can decide to activate the "emergency hologram" of themselves.
Wich essentially is a "Borg/ghost" version of themselves.... I'll write it down as a sily suggestion for now. But I think we hade enough derailing this topic. If anything.. we should start a new topic on the "Meh not gonna bother" attitude of Goon1.

I've only ever played on goon1, is goonrp's attitude towards antags similar?
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#27
(01-26-2023, 12:10 PM)weezerfan2001 Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 12:29 PM)Kotlol Wrote:
(01-25-2023, 11:26 AM)Zamujasa Wrote: if you're an antag going for body count (which is generally what causes these discussions) you are likely already going after the least robust people, because that lets you kill more. it's just that nobody gives a shit, because intervening directly makes you more likely to be a target

this has been an ongoing cultural problem since as long as i've been playing. it shifts and changes over time but there are always reasons people don't do it

If people don't wanna fight the antag and die, then not come back since clonebay was blown up... makes unwilling to do something.
While I think the dead system in general is a great mix of interacting and "Not wanting to die"

You could say: "Well we could reward players trying to fight the antag"
But then we increase validhunting...

We could say: "Well give more fun ways to come back from the dead."
But that might be a way for players to die so they can have these fun ways. (Aka Kudzu people beomcing super botanists, Love it, but it was still a "fun way to die and come back")

If I would suggest a change... Go Red Dwarf style holograms.
If someone dies...then can decide to activate the "emergency hologram" of themselves.
Wich essentially is a "Borg/ghost" version of themselves.... I'll write it down as a sily suggestion for now. But I think we hade enough derailing this topic. If anything.. we should start a new topic on the "Meh not gonna bother" attitude of Goon1.

I've only ever played on goon1, is goonrp's attitude towards antags similar?

Heck no.
Different atomsphere.

Players and antags try to get the best time possible together.
So antags mostly DO NOT TOUCH CLONE BAY! Unless they will "announce" they will.

Antags mostly do NOT rampage at all.And even if they do... most of the station will rat em out or do something.

At the same time.. Security will not arrest an antagonist for having contraband or being "supicious"
WILL NOT KILL the antag even if they have killed unless they did something horrible or... it's their 3rd major crime.
Crew will NOT touch antags if they don't touch them even if they wear contraband, they will only fight antags out of self defense or assisting someone who's being attacked.

Then again... Half the antagonists are turned off on RP and are in lower numbers.
So no:
Nukies
Blob
Flockmind
Wizard
Elementals
Werewolves

Just:
Spy/thieves
Traitors
Conspirators
Changelings
Vampires
Wraith's
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#28
(01-25-2023, 06:25 AM)RelentlessGarbage Wrote: People are also quick to run rather than fight because some folks on these servers are FAR more robust than most crewmembers by virtue of experience, and people understandably don't like dying.

This I feel strongly. Its not that I don't want to stop the rampaging antag. Its that I can't. What am I supposed to do against Robust McGee and his robust mindhacked friend, who have already killed all of security (if there was any to begin with) and robbed the armory ?

Call it apathty all you want, but I don't see the point in throwing myself at theses kind of antags that I know will disable me instantly and shrug off whatever minor damage I could have done to them a few second after my swift death.

Its really not the dying part that the worst here. Its the disabling. We talk a lot about stun meta but really the meta is disabling your opponent as fast as possible so they are not allowed to retaliate, trough whatever means. Stuns is just the must obvious. This make for very one sided antag interaction with predictable results.

Of course another big factor in that kind of scenarios is that rampage hours are often no security hours on classic. Antags team up against a very, very understaffed sec, giving them a huge upper hand. That would almost never work on RP where the opposite tend to happen. Security is fully staffed with officers chilling around having coffee and donuts waiting for any glimpse of antag activity.
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#29
Security on rp will execute for a single murder. Its context, moment, mood and atmosphere. And round time. Also different teams do it differently. Murder or mass poisoning are the ones i am most likely to push for full punishment, as an example.
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#30
(01-27-2023, 06:13 AM)Silent Majority Wrote: Security on rp will execute for a single murder. Its context,  moment, mood and atmosphere. And round time.  Also different teams do it differently. Murder or mass poisoning are the ones i am most likely to push for full punishment, as an example.

Yea but it's SUPER RARE.
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