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A Meta-Friending/Clique Discussion.
#31
I've been meaning to comment on this thread for a while as I think it has helped me to connect a few dots. If you know me, you know that I used to play on roleplay a lot several months ago, and nowadays I play practically exclusively classic. I've tried several times to get back into playing roleplay, and each time it just felt quiet. I chalked this up to just me being used to the very high pop that classic has experienced for the past few months, but I dont think thats entirely the case. While I rarely play roleplay nowadays and haven't played recently, Ive noticed that generally comms and the station is way less lively then previously despite the fact that roleplay now gets ~20% more players compared to months ago. Channels like command and medical now oftentimes get forgotten compared to previously when they used to be pretty active channels. While this can likely be contributed to many things, I think one thing is one of the main contributing factors here.

While hanging out basically exclusively with your friends wasnt unheard of, I think its been regularized to a harmful extent. Previously while it wasn't unusual to hang out with your buds, it also wasn't common, it was a big exception that was something people did a minority of rounds instead of a rule. Now from when I've played its hard to not run into a group that constantly sticks to themselves. Its a self reinforcing cycle, people are stuck in groups, so people have trouble socializing outside of groups, so they stick to groups in order to roleplay. Its no longer an uncommon thing, its a regular thing.

As much as Id love to say just have just have people act nicer, expecting people to just improve there behavior rarely works. While admin intervention can definitely help here, admins have to be fairly liberal with punishing as they dont have infinite knowledge, and ultimately does nothing to break the cycle. New players always tend to shake things up and another tide would probably help here. I also think things that focus on getting players to interact with other players would be good, mechanically stuff like encouraging cooperation would encourage communication. I do think it may also be neat if there was enforced random characters occasionally just to get people used to talking to people they dont know, I know that it can be dysphoric for some to play as a character that doesn't conform to there gender so this'll probably be best accomplished by having some menu that allows you to randomize your character an infinite amount of times till you get one you're comfortable with.
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#32
(10-01-2022, 04:10 AM)Kotlol Wrote: If you TRUELY want to play on goon with a private thing. Don't be on station. Go somewhere else and do whatever there.
If you get found out, deal with it.

As an alternative: if you want to play a private thing with no interruptions, don't choose a round on Goon as the platform for that specific roleplay.

What I've done in the past, and I'm sure others have done as well, is have important/private RP in something like Discord DMs where we can take our time and control the variables and discuss things OOC as much as we want in order to have it play out the way we want. It works just fine!

Having the private or vital moments be elsewhere means that when I log into the game, I can do so with the intent of going with the flow and having random or emergent RP with anyone who I happen to see, instead of needing to have "specific plot moments" happen for my character's story. It takes a lot of pressure off me, and lets me just RP with folks and respond to what's going on without worrying that I'm going to ruin "the moment." The moment can be whatever it wants to be.

And honestly? The important stuff ends up happening in game anyway. And it's better because I couldn't plan it, and I didn't restrict it to just the folks I knew, and I ended up making new friends and building shared history with them. It's so, so much better.
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#33
(10-02-2022, 12:10 PM)jan.antilles Wrote:
(10-01-2022, 04:10 AM)Kotlol Wrote: If you TRUELY want to play on goon with a private thing. Don't be on station. Go somewhere else and do whatever there.
If you get found out, deal with it.

As an alternative: if you want to play a private thing with no interruptions, don't choose a round on Goon as the platform for that specific roleplay.

What I've done in the past, and I'm sure others have done as well, is have important/private RP in something like Discord DMs where we can take our time and control the variables and discuss things OOC as much as we want in order to have it play out the way we want. It works just fine!

Having the private or vital moments be elsewhere means that when I log into the game, I can do so with the intent of going with the flow and having random or emergent RP with anyone who I happen to see, instead of needing to have "specific plot moments" happen for my character's story. It takes a lot of pressure off me, and lets me just RP with folks and respond to what's going on without worrying that I'm going to ruin "the moment." The moment can be whatever it wants to be.

And honestly? The important stuff ends up happening in game anyway. And it's better because I couldn't plan it, and I didn't restrict it to just the folks I knew, and I ended up making new friends and building shared history with them. It's so, so much better.

I still am saying mostly: "Just don't RP on goon and do your own private servers"
But... if you have to... but still it ain't the best idea.
I am still going to say: "Get your own server."
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#34
No actually we're not trying to tell people not to rp on goon because the server is for rp, we're saying you also have the option of roleplaying in dms so people aren't excluded
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#35
If you want to control which characters interact with you, do your RP somewhere that you can control which characters interact with you. (Like Jan said, Discord PMs are great for that)

But, in the case of most people, that's not what we consistently want. For the most part, we're all here to play a game with people we don't already know. There's no reasonable expectation that you can start a round with an idea of exactly what's going to happen and everyone who's going to be involved and what the ultimate outcome will be. (And if you can, I'm assuming you're either going MIA at minute 2, never to be seen again, or just phenomenally clairvoyant) That's the appeal of the game in the first place. Nobody is coming here with the expectation of doing Very Serious And Realistic One-On-One Workplace RP for every single round. It happens and it's great to see and be a part of sometimes, but it's not the core of the game. The beauty of it is that we're here to make pizza smoke, turn into birds, and then die from space drugs. Casual goofy stuff like that is- in my experience- infinitely more conducive to getting strangers involved than more serious RP.

Of course, if someone can't reckon with the idea that the largely multiplayer game they're playing is usually largely multiplayer, it's safe to say we'd all welcome them to leave. But in most cases, the solution to needing more interaction between people who don't already know each other shouldn't be removing the very people we're trying to get those interactions with.
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#36
I've been thinking for a while how to format what I have to say here, and if what I have to say would even add anything constructive. I guess we'll see. I'm going to be speaking based off of my experiences so while I may put forward a few things not all of those things will be applicable to this situation.

I've been into roleplaying for a few years, and I have seen cliques and meta-buddy groups form repeatedly in the games and communities I enjoy. The nature of these groupings vary from game to game but the one thing that always marks them as being problematic isn't that they're forming into groups; The problem is that these groups then proceed to act in an exclusionary matter which causes anyone not already "in" to be left out entirely until the time that it may interest the group, at which time the group may treat the outsiders more like an npc in a video game than a human being.

I've been on the receiving end of this many times, and I imagine I was also responsible for having left people out inadvertently too. I feel as if I may of been a bit slow to notice either of these happenings due to my personality and the matter that I roleplay - generally with short interactions with less impact. Over time I filtered into roles where these brief interactions would be expected - Merchants, innkeepers, hired swords, etc. These roles required that other new people were interacted with either to ensure steady employment or simply because they offered a service that was highly desired and could monetize said service.

All of these provided for interactions greater than what I typically encounter on space station 13. Many of the equivalent jobs that I've tried either typically result in being ignored or, as mentioned earlier, being treated like an npc. I've noticed in ss13, especially goonstation, that oftentimes the people treating me in such a manner aren't actively in a group. Rather, they're an individual who wants one of their motives filled and has elected to visit the bar or kitchen instead of a vending machine. If I were to be a merchant there expectedly isn't much interest in anything that isn't commonly available - And most items that the merchant can obtain are very commonly available since money is hardly important or difficult to obtain. The chaplain tends to have difficulty finding interactions unless a staff member adds some form of odd divine intervention. Doctors are expected to just heal as quick as they can so medical rp is rare. The list of examples goes on and on for just about every role that exists.

Having seen all of this makes me wonder if the mechanics of the game itself aren't to blame to some extent. There's a great deal of things that CAN push a player to interact with another, yes, but there's seemingly even more that drive them away. If you want to eat or drink there's countless vending machines or safe bits of food scattered about the station. If you want an object you can probably head to the asteroid field and get it, or otherwise purchase it. The only roles that HAVE to interact are security and medical. Most other departments are either expected to do very little or nothing at all. Even chefs and bartenders tend to leave out a variety of easy to make drinks and foodstuff rather than having people approach them and ask for specific items. I'm not sure if I'd readily propose any changes other than having more mechanics that push players to interact with eachother.

Of course that does little for the people that are genuinely in a clique and ignoring others players or for the people feeling left out but I figure that it'd be better to try and add to the conversation that to not. Thanks for reading.
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#37
Doctors aren't exactly expected to heal as quick as they can - they just choose to.

Yesterday I saw a heavily burned person walk into Medical, 4 doctors swarmed them, scanned them and used a burn mender on them - no words.

You have to give something to get something, too. Roleplay isn't just going to fall into your lap. You have to talk as well as walk around the station.

"Goodness, what happened? Sit down, I'll take a look at you." And suddenly the player feels absolutely pampered. If they say "Ah I gotta go, just mend me." Fine, try again on the next player - but even putting in the little hook of "What happened?" Can start a conversation.
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#38
I think I was viewed as having a clique. One I didn't actually interact with oocly, or one that I didn't interact with Icly, both around the same time. I never really noticed this till others pointed it out and I quickly tried to remedy the situation. You see a thing is, I quiet enjoy people here on this server. But I don't ...like... try to ever keep them to one. I see a lot of people who will be like "I like Bartender 4. Therefore, any character Bartender 4 makes, from quartermaster 2 to captain 18 to even botanist 9 I am going to always rp with them, even if I have to make a character to rp with this version" or other people who do not...really engage much in the conceit of what the game is to instead consistently and only hang out with a few people. If they're security and their friends are antags then they get a pass, if they're this then they're that then they're fine, etc.

I have some smattering of friends here. this does not change how I rp or treat them, and likewise there are people I associate with in character quite extensively that I do not speak with oocly.

I, the person, am not Piffany. I Don't want Piffany to be me, either. I already did me, and, pretty much crushed it.

I understand people want to play with their friends and stick to a social group they enjoy. But I think that heavily leaves the feeling of isolation to others. In the field of space I will always treat people only as my character would, the person behind me just steers the character away from engaging in bad behavior. Otherwise, no matter how much or how little i know anyone I will treat them the same way as anyone else.

And for people who do often end up cloistered like that? Talk to other people. Some will reject you because they're doing their own thing. And that is fine, but nothing beats the excitement of finding someone new to tell stories with..

And like..again. I don't know who or what you are, and if you don't prompt me to I'm not gonna pay attention to your Player Handle. if you wanna just interact with someone I am always happy to interact with my sad edge girl. And if you ever felt I excluded or cut you off or shut you down, when I am playing I do try to stay really ic. I take the 'you want to keep your job' thing serious so Piffany(or variations there of), at least, will always put her work before anyone or anything else. Her doing that doesn't mean anyone interacting with her isn't free to tag along or try to join in or stuff. Just doctors gonna doctor, sec offs gonna sec.
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#39
with all of this said i think this would be a good subject to bring up for whenever the next town hall is, as not necessarily everyone who plays uses this forum, but they might use discord
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#40
I know I am VERY late to the discussion, but I thought I'd give my two cents on it.

This is a really long post, so just read the first two paragraphs below if you want the TLDR.

My biggest gripe with having a metaclique is that it sometimes seriously disrupts the round's workflow and general functionality of the station sometimes if they prioritize RPing with their metaclique instead of doing their job.

Now, I'm not saying you should never deviate from the job you signed up for - RP can be done outside of your department - but I don't think you should neglect urgent and core aspects of your job to RP with someone just because you're familiar with them and know you'll have a good time.

This is especially awful on lowpop. I could give a few examples here.

I remember a round where the Chief Engineer had completely disappeared to do Adventure Zones with a friend, never returning for the entire round. They left behind a new, latejoining engineer to fumble around to try and figure out how to set up the engine by themselves. I had to bring together myself, the AI, and a miner to try and help this Engineer figure it out. They never responded. Not a damn word on the radio. I only realized post-round that they were off doing Azones.
I've also had a group of doctors completely ignore my dying body, heart exposed, on an operating table just to RP with a monkey they were familiar with who was having an allergic reaction. I died, and they left my corpse on that operating table for so long that it started rotting. When I respawned, the corpse was still there, and they were still RPing with the monkey.

I could go on and on, but here's the TLDR of it: In a situation where we need all the capable hands that we can get to keep the station functional, prioritizing a metafriend is nothing if not detrimental to the integrity of the station.

Now, how can we fix this?

If I were to answer this personally? We can't. Not naturally. It's basic psychology for people to favor their ingroups as compared to unfamiliar outgroups. It's already been said in this forum by others - people can expect a positive outcome when RPing with people that they know.
Personally speaking, I've accepted my fate. I know that I'm going to be alienated by veteran RPers who don't want people to interject into their own personal and overarching RP storylines, and just go off to RP with other people that are also being excluded. Is this right? I dunno, you tell me. Is this inevitable? Maybe.

If I were to answer this as a rule-abiding, upstanding member of Goonstation? Ahelp any metaclique situations and try and include people as much as you can. When I first started playing on Goon RP, I was very alienated and excluded until a security officer decided to pick me out of the blue and just... started to RP with me. We boxed, talked, had drinks and a smoke and shared a box of donk pockets together. It was one of the most fun rounds I've ever had, and probably the best way to introduce me to Goon RP.
It was a phenomenal feeling to finally be included in something like that after being alienated, and I firmly believe that if there were more people like that SecOff out there on RP, it'd be a much more inclusive and fun place. The last thing we want is to drive new people out.
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#41
(10-09-2022, 09:40 PM)SirSwagmeyer Wrote: This is especially awful on lowpop. I could give a few examples here.

I remember a round where the Chief Engineer had completely disappeared to do Adventure Zones with a friend, never returning for the entire round. They left behind a new, latejoining engineer to fumble around to try and figure out how to set up the engine by themselves. I had to bring together myself, the AI, and a miner to try and help this Engineer figure it out. They never responded. Not a damn word on the radio. I only realized post-round that they were off doing Azones.
I've also had a group of doctors completely ignore my dying body, heart exposed, on an operating table just to RP with a monkey they were familiar with who was having an allergic reaction. I died, and they left my corpse on that operating table for so long that it started rotting. When I respawned, the corpse was still there, and they were still RPing with the monkey.

I could go on and on, but here's the TLDR of it: In a situation where we need all the capable hands that we can get to keep the station functional, prioritizing a metafriend is nothing if not detrimental to the integrity of the station.

On that note.. now I remember some situations where "I died" or "The head of the department dissappeared" or "Such things"
I recently started to Ahelp such behaviours.
For example.. I see an empty medbay, a doctor runs in and I am like: "I need a doctor here"
They go: "Nah!" and run off...
I contact the HoP. "Doctors ain't doing their jobs, I had to grab what I could to stablize someone here"
HoP not responding on doing their job, cause they are RPing something else.

I have litterly seen stuff what you mention before with me going: "Why do you ROLL engineer if you wanna SCIENTIST?"
"Why do you roll doctor if you wanna be a drunk staff assistant?"
"Why do you roll security if you don't wanna security?"
Not really a CLIQUE problem, more players having random rolls on and then changing from not getting what they want..
Sure the HOP can change it, but... that slot they used? Gone. You rolled Doctor but wanted to be something else and you get it? That doctor slot for late joiner is GONE!

Anyhow.. this is why I rely on being a detective and security main most of the time. As I can access those areas and do their job if it's an emergency even if it's breaking charater, cause... if I don't do it... everyone's RP will be sabotaged. It also makes me be captain more often cause again.. all access all work can be done by me if needed.
Engine not being worked on since engineers want to build stuff? Fine I'll do it so we have power.
Doctors off to A-zones? Guess I'll hire some people or do it myself so the rest of the crew won't die.

I don't hate these kinda shifts since I still get interaction as the captain who is helping everyone, but I do end up docking their pays for not responding or doing their jobs, cause let's face it. If you aren't willing to do your job....that money is best spend somewhere else. (Also A-help it, but this is an in-universe consiquence)
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#42
(10-10-2022, 04:05 AM)Kotlol Wrote: I have litterly seen stuff what you mention before with me going: "Why do you ROLL engineer if you wanna SCIENTIST?"
"Why do you roll doctor if you wanna be a drunk staff assistant?"
"Why do you roll security if you don't wanna security?"
Not really a CLIQUE problem, more players having random rolls on and then changing from not getting what they want..
Sure the HOP can change it, but... that slot they used? Gone. You rolled Doctor but wanted to be something else and you get it? That doctor slot for late joiner is GONE!

To be honest, on low pop the slot being taken hardly matters and on high pop i am always happy when people do some "hybrid jobs", like an scientist with engineering acess, instead of flocking the department.

The problem only really exist with command jobs on low pop, and i definetly thing a medical director or a hop who dom't do their job should be ahelped
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#43
See I really do love goon! But honestly meta-friendship/cliques really do have an impact on people well. Outside of it. 
To a degree sure i understand—maybe you kinda give your friend the benefit of the doubt when they’re accused of being the antag, or you rush to heal someone you’re best friends with before someone else because wow you sure don’t like seeing them hurt. But at the same time it ruins the fun for other players (and I’m sure that since I live with someone who plays goon we do sometimes get more stuck with each other than outside players) 
Like when you’re the chef, and botany is too deep into a roleplay to make you anything and you’re lucky to get wheat. Or you’re medical, and science doesn’t get to a medicine request because they’re also too deep to do much. Or you’re a staffie and dying infront of medical and no one gets you because someone came in to roleplay with the doctors and everyone is entranced.  
Never do I think it’s intentional, but man Can it suck when you don’t get listened to because friends in the clique will always be given more thought then you, random individual. Or you try to initiate a roleplay with several people in a row and all of them immediately decline because another rp is happening, they don’t know you, or hell they just don’t like you and demand you leave the bar bc your presence interrupts a flow that was established 5 minutes in. 
All this to say it does happen, and it’s from a  scale of just not role playing with you to you see yourself get treated very differently from other plays for the reason of—you just aren’t their friend and they have no reason to invite you in their eyes. Which can be frustrating when you see someone get help or leeway and you immediately get shut down or well shot at.

As for a way to alleviate it? I think a big part of it is boundaries—you don’t know a strangers boundaries, and you don’t know if a stranger is going to go along with an RP (which is especially rough for people who are antags). Maybe establishing those in character sheets or flavor text or something can help. 
Additionally I do think those events this month where we simply do not know who someone is help: you’re forced to interact with new people which is great and could carry over. 
But honestly probably your biggest thing is being mindful and making an effort to talk to new people or (and I’ll admit I don’t do this enough as medic) leaving your department to make room and opportunity to meet new people. 
 metacliquing in general is a pretty unfun thing, and honestly almost everyone falls into doing it because it’s fun to rp with friends. We just really have to be mindful of it—esp if you see someone cryoing early a lot or it interrupting interdepartment flow, etc.
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#44
..I will say something that works for me, and that I always practice with?

This is my characters job. She came here to work. She does her job. I may have occasional leaves but generally I will spiritedly and exactingly do my characters job over personal or interpersonal injured and. Likewise I address threats as where I doing that job. I will medically treat anyone who is injured and put emphasis on those most in peril. As security everyone is equal. Everyone can be a criminal, everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, and everyone is tried the same way.

Of course, its compelling and cool to do your RPs. but for me 'in character' is an important thing. I don't want people wandering into my surgery when I'm doing surgery. I'm going to call out a worry about legal procedure being represented impartially. I'm gonna cook edible food and you're gonna eat it. these are the things I value alot in my play.
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