[CLOSED PR] Counterrev implants no longer convert players. the amount of counterre...

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About the PR
This is a pr that Id like to see test merged for a week and then feedback collected. While I think this would fix a lot of issues with revs, it will probably introduce some more. The ability for counterrev implants to convert people has been removed, they still show peoples rev status and prevent them from being converted to rev. This prs sister pr is #9835


Why's this needed?
This forces combat escalation when it comes to derevving people, this not only offers emotional incentive to not get derevved by sec (afterall you dont want to get beat up), this also communicates to players that beating up converts people. I think this change should make revs way more active and will make action way more common, not to mention, help make the rev gamemode a bit more balanced compared to the overwhelming chance of security curbstomping victory currently.


Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)Ikea
(*)Counterrev implants no longer automatically convert revolutionaries.

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[Sbmhawk]

Unless something was added that shows everyone that this person is a rev/not a rev when implanted, I think this is really not a good idea.

There are very limited sechuds, and those are the only way to see what the "result" or the implant is. Before this, if it were to be implemented, everyone could see and hear the receiver being hurt by the implant, a clear sign that they are a rev, but after this, the only way to tell would be when you are using sechuds.

[Ikea]

I was tempted to (only reason why I didnt was out of laziness) in #9835 have you glow with the color of your team when converted for a few seconds so its more clear in fights when someone got converted, and I can easily do so if more people think thats a good idea, I think itd help with team recognition in fights a lot.

[nefarious6th]

no feedback on implementation for now; though I do like the mad dash to preserve loyal crew asap, and that security wouldn't be able to just jab someone and know if they're a head rev based on if the conversion works or not (it's like fishing!)

[DimWhat]

I feel like this encourages sec to beat people to crit to make sure they aren't a rev.

[Katzen]

I like the change away from implants being the "win" condition for security.

[Ikea]

I feel like this encourages sec to beat people to crit to make sure they aren't a rev.

If someone is a non rev and does something that makes sec suspicious of them being a rev to the point of assault, chances are they deserved to be beat up anyways, if sec is beating up someone just because theres revs somewhere then Im pretty sure that constituents as grief and regardless is a good way to get your allies to be enemies.

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no feedback on implementation for now; though I do like the mad dash to preserve loyal crew asap, and that security wouldn't be able to just jab someone and know if they're a head rev based on if the conversion works or not (it's like fishing!)

In this pr I kept the shock indicator and text for head revs, so you will still be able to tell immediately if someone is a headrev, I removed the shock indicator for normal revs though.

[Flaborized]

I don't actually think this makes implants any less of a win condition, since it'd still absolutely be ideal to implant everyone who's eligible for rev status, since you both want to make people immune and want to check before bashing in some random dude's skull.

Right now, implants *should* be rewarding you with a faster conversion if you manage to totally disable someone during a fight, without tediously having to beat every single converted person to crit with your baton. Revs have ways to counteract implants (outhealing the damage done to keep themselves out of crit, revflashes removing them) but they all crucially don't work if you're actively caught by sec. I'd rather personally see *this* aspect of them iterated on, since I think it plays pretty interestingly when it actually works. Ways for revs to more consistently use counterplay against implants, maybe implants only ever could do a certain amount of damage, and if you can heal through that, they stay in you and only active when you hit crit naturally? That's just a simple example I thought of though, it could be anything. My point is that I think it would be a lot more fun to focus on ways revs could counteract implants instead of removing the entire interaction.

In general I don't think this change is very good, it removes a part of the mode (helping other revs who aren't converted but have an implant) that I think is pretty fun sometimes, and adds something I think would be pretty tedious (having to crit every rev to deconvert) without actually adding much depth to the mode. If you were able to convert someone with counterrev implants, it won't be hard to be able to convert them with brute force, it just takes a bit longer with more clicking a stunned person.

[Ikea]

I think that comment misses the point of this change, the point of this change is not to make counterrevs any less critical to the round. Nor is the changes purpose to make converting people less hard. Will this change make counterrevs less good and converting people harder? Yes. Is this the main point of the change? No.

I am of the take that what people can do matters much less then what they will do. People can run to medbay and cut out there implant, despite this however very few people do. Even when all you needed was a glass shard and a bed, this was still the minority of people counterrevved. You don't really see floods of people running to medbay on rev rounds. Why is this? Well, two main reasons 1. The source of damage can be confusing, players may not realize they've been implanted and thus not know what they can do. This as the only reason why doing something about implants is rare seems week though, a significant chunk of players know how this mechanic works, yet people cutting out there implants is still a minority.

I think the main main reason for this trend is that counterrev implants don't have much emotional appeal towards counteracting them. A player knows that sure they may take damage, but at the end of the day, they'll get healed. Not only that, but the damage is abstracted, while you are taking damage, its not from a visible source, its just from something that is happening to you. Being beaten up invokes a strong emotional response, unlike taking damage occasionally from something you cant even see. Players would be way more likely to fight back to the sec off beating them up then to the implant slowly damaging them.

Even though that is a major reason for why I think this change would be good, it's not the main reason. The main reason is simply that most players don't know that beating people up works, the main way players interact with conversions are flashes and being implanted. Brawls and battles are by far the most fun part of the rev gamemode, yet currently they are rare. By having sec offs show that you can convert people by beating them up, this also shows revs that they can beat people up to convert them. I think this change would make revs much more active by adding a strong emotional hook to not getting derevved, make combat more common by showing players that beating people up works, and by increasing the chances of combat, you also make counterrevved people wish to counter revs due to the revs likely just leaving them dead if they try to convert them via percussive maintenance.

[Flaborized]

People *are* more liable to do things that are easier and less complicated. The reason that my example for a way you could implement counter-play into existing implants was so applicable to *everybody* was that I think it's ignored as a system largely because it's tied to surgery and specific rev items. Healing teammates is something you'd be doing intuitively, so it makes sense with the design goals of counterrev implants. (them being tied to 'winning' an interaction against revs)

While beating people is definitely more visually intense, I think it's generally pretty clear that the reason sec is beating you in any case is to convert you, not to murder you. Not only is sec likely to heal you themselves after you're deconverted, doing it through physical damage heals you anyways, and once you understand how the gamemode's mechanics actually work, you're not really going to be invested in it in the "I'm going to die" potential of it, people generally now are more invested in keeping their fun antag status when they *do* care. There's little incentive to ever actually fully kill non-revhead revs, so I don't think it'd be as effective as you're saying it is.

I'm also really unconvinced that forcing sec to beat revs up to convert actually teaches revs how the mechanics of the game works. Why would they assume it's symmetrical like that? From the perspective of revs, converting through crit is already inconsistent, since a ton of jobs are immune totally and people with implants aren't visible always, so I don't see this actually going very far in conveying that mechanic. I don't think this is actually a very tangible benefit and I still don't think the change would make the game better for the reasons stated in my other post.

[Ikea]

Rev as a gamemode is fundamentally one that prides itself off of violence, leaning more into the primary interaction between revs and derevs is nonviolent conversion I think would be a mistake. The thing about the emotional reaction to violence is that it is mostly emotional, not logical. Even doing a bit of damage to someone can make them perceive it very negatively. The rounds I see that tend to have the most action are the ones that have small violence start up and that escalates, by having violence be the default instead of something that occasionally happens, you constantly have that spark for those all out brawls that make rev rounds great. While this is something that can only be seen with gameplay experience with this in game, I am certain that this will have its intended effects.