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suggestion: replace* appropriative references to the wendigo
#1
you can copy this PR if you want to, or you can write it as whatever other new name you like, admittedly this one is a placeholder and might be changed again.
https://github.com/coolstation/coolstation/pull/17
 
These games are largely developed on unceded indigenous land, or in countries that greatly benefited from the exploitation of those lands. 
I myself don't have the cultural knowledge or sensitivity to do justice to native american legend or myth, and from what research I have done our antiquated representation of the wendigo as some vicious cryptid yeti is massively out of touch with reality. so I decided to rename the content until we're in a position to revamp the creature into something new. 

Also hellosmile
am warc 
Just fucking post it already!

title amended because I realised "remove" is not what this PR does, it's just renaming the existing creature something new and made-up.
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#2
sounds fine to me, gonna take a bit to get used to but other than that I personally have no issues

except perhaps if the goonmins want a different name for 'em
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#3
kinda surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly, all for it
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#4
No objections. Renaming it to something like the "Abomination" or "Space Cannibal" wouldn't be bad.

Maybe "Flesh Mutant" is the most accurate.
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#5
I'm a fan of "abomination" because they are real bastards but also, lings.
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#6
Legendary space beast of ahhhhhhhhhhh!
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#7
Going to be honest here, I'm not seeing anything in the SS13 wendigo that's not also in wendigo legend, other than the obvious "is in space" thing.  The legend of the wendigo occurs in dozens of cultures across half a continent and varies considerably between them - the anthropophagy, the connection to winter, and the supernatural nature of the thing being the shared bit.  The insistence on defining mythological things, forcing them into boxes and saying "this is x" and "this is not x" is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment, and while it may be useful for academic purposes it's contrary to the way humans have interacted with mythology for pretty much all of recorded history, and can very easily lead into defining a culture's legends for them.

I'm kind of rambling here now and I don't want to turn this into an actual essay so uh.

If someone has complained, then by all means, change the name.  If no one has then be aware that, however well-meaning your attempts at combating appropriation are, you run the risk of whitewashing and cultural imperialism* if done without the support and/or consultation of the people whose culture is being appropriated.



*this isn't quite the right term but I can't for the life of me remember what the right term is
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#8
Thanks for the response Mouse, that's some good points.

re: the considerable variation - I definitely agree and it seems that whoever implemented this mob in years gone took a few common bits and made them into This Thing. I'm not arguing that there *is* a correct way to portray it in are spessgame, or a Correct Wendigo at all. It's just that it's not our story to tell or to decide how to portray it. Taking inspiration from it and basing a mob off of it is one thing, but by assigning the name of Wendigo, we indirectly do define the myth to an audience of hundreds.

The story of the wendigo is, largely, a cautionary tale about greed, selfishness and taboo in times of famine - and one of extreme cultural significance that seems to be only vaguely passed-over in favor of a traditional Hollywood-esque "theres a bunch of monsters" story.
Not necesarilly just in what's on the Ice Moon (where it's unclear if the wendigo are the crew of the outpost or just Things that Were There and Want To Kill You)- but in their adoption into Spessman the Griffening and the Monster Manual. In this sense, even if their portrayal was respectful as a mob, they're being in-universe exploited in commercial products as a glorified pokemon.

adding to that the whole "sewing wendigo arms to yourself" - which is tone deaf to say the least, considering the subject matter.
and wendigo hides as a material, again.

as for "if someone has complained" - this was brought up to me by good friend and respected opinion-haver AtomicThumbs, whose judgment I have come to trust deeply. He provided some reading material that helped us understand why it was best to dissassociate our creature from the myth, and ill link those here.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/8...200423.pdf
https://www.backstoryradio.org/blog/the-...e-windigo/

I don't want to remove the creature or change it, and perhaps one day we'll have a reliable consultant on Native culture and how to do it respectfully, but in the absence of a better alternative, I think the least we can do is make it less explicitly exploitative.
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#9
(03-05-2022, 07:08 AM)warcrimes Wrote: Thanks for the response Mouse, that's some good points.

re: the considerable variation - I definitely agree and it seems that whoever implemented this mob in years gone took a few common bits and made them into This Thing. I'm not arguing that there *is* a correct way to portray it in are spessgame, or a Correct Wendigo at all. It's just that it's not our story to tell or to decide how to portray it. Taking inspiration from it and basing a mob off of it is one thing, but by assigning the name of Wendigo, we indirectly do define the myth to an audience of hundreds.

The story of the wendigo is, largely, a cautionary tale about greed, selfishness and taboo in times of famine - and one of extreme cultural significance that seems to be only vaguely passed-over in favor of a traditional Hollywood-esque "theres a bunch of monsters" story.
Not necesarilly just in what's on the Ice Moon (where it's unclear if the wendigo are the crew of the outpost or just Things that Were There and Want To Kill You)- but in their adoption into Spessman the Griffening and the Monster Manual. In this sense, even if their portrayal was respectful as a mob, they're being in-universe exploited in commercial products as a glorified pokemon.

adding to that the whole "sewing wendigo arms to yourself" - which is tone deaf to say the least, considering the subject matter.
and wendigo hides as a material, again.

as for "if someone has complained" - this was brought up to me by good friend and respected opinion-haver AtomicThumbs, whose judgment I have come to trust deeply. He provided some reading material that helped us understand why it was best to dissassociate our creature from the myth, and ill link those here.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/8...200423.pdf
https://www.backstoryradio.org/blog/the-...e-windigo/

I don't want to remove the creature or change it, and perhaps one day we'll have a reliable consultant on Native culture and how to do it respectfully, but in the absence of a better alternative, I think the least we can do is make it less explicitly exploitative.

Wendigos also spawn on discount dan's personal asteriod. A place of greed where it's even stated that Discount Dan can be the one cooked inside your Burrito or food.
It's not 100% accurate.

As for sewing wendigo arms onto yourself. You can also do it with space bear arms. The wendigo arms do the follow.
- "Any help and harm" are now stabbing.
- Tapping any glass breaks it (even plasma)
- When trying to grab anything with the wendigo arm it has a x% chance of you failing to grab it.
- It can pry open locked doors.

Just adding some context to the legends I guess.
Overall I don't care if they are called Umpa Lumpa's, Wendigo's or Ice mutants.
I just wanted to add abit more context.
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#10
I think in Oshan there is a small (non canon?) lore tidbit of someone receiving a crate of Wendigo pups instead of seal pups - I think having them (canonically) be mutated seals would be good lore, but I struggle to think of a good name for them..
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#11
(03-05-2022, 03:46 AM)Mouse Wrote: Going to be honest here, I'm not seeing anything in the SS13 wendigo that's not also in wendigo legend, other than the obvious "is in space" thing.  The legend of the wendigo occurs in dozens of cultures across half a continent and varies considerably between them - the anthropophagy, the connection to winter, and the supernatural nature of the thing being the shared bit.  The insistence on defining mythological things, forcing them into boxes and saying "this is x" and "this is not x" is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment, and while it may be useful for academic purposes it's contrary to the way humans have interacted with mythology for pretty much all of recorded history, and can very easily lead into defining a culture's legends for them.

I'm kind of rambling here now and I don't want to turn this into an actual essay so uh.

If someone has complained, then by all means, change the name.  If no one has then be aware that, however well-meaning your attempts at combating appropriation are, you run the risk of whitewashing and cultural imperialism* if done without the support and/or consultation of the people whose culture is being appropriated.



*this isn't quite the right term but I can't for the life of me remember what the right term is

Howdy, I'm the person who originally raised the issue for Coolstation, and a (lapsed) Goonstation admin since 2013. The thing that impelled me was an online friend who is Ojibwe complaining about colonizers using the concept or term, however accurate or inaccurate for the legend.

Unfortunately I can't find their impassioned posts on the issue, not just because they've been through multiple Twitter accounts, but because the taboo is such that they really hate talking about the subject at all. Not only that, but I remember distinctly that they refused to use its name because you aren't even supposed to talk about it. 

The issue isn't one of "this is or isn't sticking to the canon of the legend," it's one of "we aren't from the cultures the legend belongs to, and really shouldn't be 'borrowing' parts of it." Discussing whether the depiction is or isn't accurate is secondary to the core issues, the primary one being that even if it were perfectly accurate to the legend, it's still very likely to bother anyone from the cultures it belongs to, detracting from their enjoyment of a game that should be welcoming.

The other issue is: nobody in Goonstation, as far as I know, are First Nations, and it's not our legend to use, as colonizers or as people in other nations. Indigenous peoples in the Americas today have had their land stolen and their cultures nearly annihilated. Cultural plundering even on a small scale isn't the way we should be doing things; appropriating the name for an "ice world" video game enemy is the literal definition of the whitewashing and cultural imperialism you're worried about.
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#12
(03-05-2022, 10:06 AM)Cal Wrote: I think in Oshan there is a small (non canon?) lore tidbit of someone receiving a crate of Wendigo pups instead of seal pups - I think having them (canonically) be mutated seals would be good lore, but I struggle to think of a good name for them..


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#13
the first name new that came to mind was "Snow Phantoms", since they can phase through walls and live in the ice moon.
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#14
(03-05-2022, 10:06 AM)Cal Wrote: I think in Oshan there is a small (non canon?) lore tidbit of someone receiving a crate of Wendigo pups instead of seal pups - I think having them (canonically) be mutated seals would be good lore, but I struggle to think of a good name for them..

Broken Seal.
Syndi Seals
Sealed Fates.
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#15
Make each individual creature have a random name, à la space cola/fancy beer.

Examples:

Frightening Thing
Horrid Creature
Terrifying Animal
Horrid Thing

And so on.
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