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something needs to be done about greytiding
#1
It's really getting unbearable, I feel like I'm sending multiple ahelps every bloody round over someone who is very much not an antagonist killing or maiming people, and it's not just new folks either.  I'm seeing names I recognize act like absolute murderous dipshits.  (Granted, it's names that I recognize as being pricks but still, names that have been around long enough to know that throwing stinger nades around as a nonantag is pretty obviously against the rules)

Christ, the other day I had to execute a secoff for hacking into the armory, by cutting all the fucking wires, at roundstart, to get a fucking shotgun and buckshot.  We've got people attacking sec and the heads constantly, security that's too busy dealing with the greytide to do anything about actual antags, and god knows what else going on.

It's awful on Goon1 is what I'm saying.  It's really, really awful.

I don't know what can be done about this.  I don't know if this is really the right place to raise these concerns.  I just really, really want this to get better.  I like the community a lot, but playing here has been painful lately.
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#2
Other than ahelping there really isn't much that can be done. Solutions like making the servers application only, or otherwise cordoned off long term kills servers. My way to stay positive is that sure we may have to get 5 people banned, but if a 6th player is a great person who genuinely enjoys the game and makes the place more welcoming its worth it.
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#3
needs more HoS and assurance that they can just kill people being shitty
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#4
I hate seeing old players that should simply know better by this point doing bad things and giving bad examples, as a player, the best thing you can do to help is to be nice and respectful to others and to ahelp people that break the rules.

Personally, if someone is causing more trouble than what I would expect a non antag to, I usually just assume they are an antag and kill them, if it turns out they weren't one, I ahelp them.

For perspective, I remember about a year ago there was a time span where the situation with tiding was equally as bad, and sec would just get griefed every round so no one wanted to play it and we eventually got out of that so I don't think goon will be like this for very long.
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#5
Grey tiding usually comes from sec and the grief they get is almost always a result of them abusing their power and assumed authority. I think this is mainly because of security players who come from other servers where security isn't a corporate security team, but instead an occupying military force complete with ss style trench coats, execution chambers and carte blanch to treat backtalk as capital treason. It also attracts the worst kind of power gaming griefers who want immediate access to the best and constantly growing (do sec really need syndiedonk donuts at round start?) stash of weapons.

For example, in a recent game I played the medical director found and cloned a corpse. A security guard walked in, ejected the clone early, beat the clone to death with a baton, pausing briefly to taser and cuff the MD for trying to drag him away, then proceeding to beat the naked clone to death for being 'a mindslave'. The MD responded after being searched (no contraband) by banning security and the borgs from the medbay for letting this happen. This was taken as a declaration of war by security, who launched a seige on medbay with riot gear and made the department inoperable. This kind of heavy handed shittery rightfully erodes people's trust in security, and people telling security to fuck off when they ask to be let into a department is a direct result of players understanding that there's no more surefire way to ruin your round than let a heavily armed cop do whatever they want around you.

If security wants respect, stuff like this needs to either stop being a common occurance or security should lose some of their toys.
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#6
I don’t know that the grey tiding is Michael more prevelant among sec than any other role. I usually observe my first round every time I play as of late and have seen among other things a non antag lawyer throwing 3 different people into the crusher on horizon (one of note was a long that chased him in there in shambler form but ran out as they arrived so that was at least justified), a captain deciding that security is being ineffective at their job for not arresting a clown mime and bird for making noise and decided to disband security, captain then killed the bird (player controlled), round end shuttle call is announced captain recalls it not once not twice but three times after the crew voted to go home because they wanted to play out the security situation with all of 2 other security officers still on station, when the ai recalled the shuttle the captain ordered the rd to kill switch the ai. This is all one round
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#7
(12-23-2021, 06:22 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: Grey tiding usually comes from sec and the grief they get is almost always a result of them abusing their power and assumed authority.

literally not true. ill be chilling in sec when 3 dipshits break in or RCD the doors gone so people can flood in.


(12-23-2021, 06:22 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: (do sec really need syndiedonk donuts at round start?)

they have synaptazine, epinephine, and salycilic acid. lol. not fucking megameth and no-need-to-breathe or think chemicals in a pack of 6.

(12-23-2021, 06:22 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: For example, in a recent game I played the medical director found and cloned a corpse. A security guard walked in, ejected the clone early, beat the clone to death with a baton, pausing briefly to taser and cuff the MD for trying to drag him away, then proceeding to beat the naked clone to death for being 'a mindslave'.

sucks. did you ahelp?


(12-23-2021, 06:22 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: The MD responded after being searched (no contraband) by banning security and the borgs from the medbay for letting this happen.

ah so they escalated. great. and with our recent tide of new players? fantastic. that'll go over so well.

especially banning the borgs, who are literally made there, and the MD, who has virtually no power to sweepingly generalize anyone let alone security and tell them not to go into an area they have access to


hmm, i feel like you might be leaving out verrrryy important information to make it sound like Security was completely in the wrong!
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#8
(12-23-2021, 06:22 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: For example, in a recent game I played the medical director found and cloned a corpse. A security guard walked in, ejected the clone early, beat the clone to death with a baton, pausing briefly to taser and cuff the MD for trying to drag him away, then proceeding to beat the naked clone to death for being 'a mindslave'.

I was there for that round.  There was a giant fucking visible mindslave module sitting on the cloning pod.
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#9
(12-23-2021, 08:15 AM)Ca Wrote: ah so they escalated. great. and with our recent tide of new players? fantastic. that'll go over so well.

especially banning the borgs, who are literally made there, and the MD, who has virtually no power to sweepingly generalize anyone let alone security and tell them not to go into an area they have access to


hmm, i feel like you might be leaving out verrrryy important information to make it sound like Security was completely in the wrong!

This is part of the attitude problem that leads sec players into constant conflict with other players, the assumption that security can do no wrong so if sec fires teargas into the medbay because they got told to wait in the lobby if they need care by the MD (who is a head of staff, the authority figure of medbay and literally watched security murder a defenseless and unarmed man right in front of him to justify their decision). Regardless of if anyone or everyone involved got banned (I did not ahelp), this is the kind of situation players think of when they think of security! And most of the examples in the thread are of security officers abusing their power and killing people!

I would reccomend you play other roles for a while and see how comparitively tame they are when security isn't involved. Security mains need to set a better example and behave *at least* as well as the other players on the station, to justify their ever growing list of tools that they can use to end other player's rounds and grief. The donuts aren't the only problem, it's the continual addition of tools that sec keep abusing (see: security lethal grenades, implant guns, harmbatoning, etc) that evidently don't fix the problems. There needs to be more looking at security's behaviour and less knee jerk blaming of everyone else because security decided to valid hunt and make it everyone else's problem if they have an issue with it. As usual.
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#10
I’m gonna say, it the biggest problem is meme streamers introducing new players to SS13 and encouraging them to do antag a-helpable things regardless of role or antag status.
So really until that behavior changes the tide will continue.
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#11
(12-23-2021, 10:41 AM)DioChasek Wrote: I’m gonna say, it the biggest problem is meme streamers introducing new players to SS13 and encouraging them to do antag a-helpable things regardless of role or antag status.
So really until that behavior changes the tide will continue.

I find myself agreeing with this, it's been proven through multiple different times (SSeth, tomato, etc.) that this is certainly true.
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#12
(12-23-2021, 09:52 AM)Deadvickyart Wrote: And most of the examples in the thread are of security officers abusing their power and killing people!

Unless I'm being stupid (there's decent odds, I'll be honest) only two of the multiple examples were about sec, and only one was about sec killing people. One of these complaints was made by Mouse who was, to my understanding, playing HoS that round, and kept their department in check by liquidating the offending officer. To me, this sounds like the system working as intended.  The other was made by you, and it has now been asserted that the clone was made using a mindslave module. If Mouse is correct here, that would make the clone completely valid, and the officer completely justified in ensuring the clone did not actually make it back alive, assuming this is on Classic.

I do think Security is an alluring role for griefers, but this is one of the reasons we have a round limit in place, and entrust some players with HoS permissions. If someone does play nice until they get security access, and goes on to abuse it in a round without HoS oversight, that's unfortunate, but there's nothing to do but Ahelp (by pressing F1) and move on. I think this would be true even if security had nothing more to them than batons, and that other alluring roles such as barman, chef, and scientist are only guarded by the single available job for the former two and the system mastery barrier to entry of the latter, neither of which could be applied to security as a bandaid.

I personally think grief will always take the path of least resistance, so it's not really something you can mechanic away short of removing pvp from the game. The influx of greytiding is something that requires a cultural solution rather than a mechanical one: Report grief when you see it to help expedite the removal of griefers from the server, and try to be a positive and compassionate example to new players. Anything else that could be done comes before the players have even reached the game, in my opinion.

(12-23-2021, 10:41 AM)DioChasek Wrote: I’m gonna say, it the biggest problem is meme streamers introducing new players to SS13 and encouraging them to do antag a-helpable things regardless of role or antag status.
So really until that behavior changes the tide will continue.

I've got my hot takes about streamers and youtubers, but I do think administration could afford to be a bit less lenient with stream and video permissions. I understand that the boost in popularity has been a necessary booster shot for Goon's longevity, but with 3 having to go into Extended mode every other week lately, it feels like the capabilities of the administration and playerbase are being strained...
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#13
(12-23-2021, 08:15 AM)Cal Wrote: hmm, i feel like you might be leaving out verrrryy important information to make it sound like Security was completely in the wrong!
(12-23-2021, 09:40 AM)Mouse Wrote: I was there for that round.  There was a giant fucking visible mindslave module sitting on the cloning pod.

:/
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#14
The easiest solution is to have more experienced sec players get on and start de escalating everything; and if someone is living to crime, put them in the suit of shame and swirly them. They should keep security empty of non security personnel and run it strict for a bit. However, I haven't seen anything too bad, just the occasional shitter. Nothing about now seems any worse then any point before.
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#15
Its ridiculous to say the grief problem comes from Sec. I think that attitude of being against sec is really unhealthy for the game. Of course we all saw bad security officers, but not because you saw someone do something bad that all of sec deserves to be griefed. I don't get how removing our tools would help. You gotta remember we need to stop the antags, and that stopping a ling with your bare hand is not very possible.

I play mostly on RP, and the self antagging is a problem there too. Morty is always on extended because of it and its not normal. I've heard many people say they don't enjoy playing on morty anymore because its too chaotic. I've personally had very painful rounds.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think something should be done. Being less lenient towards streamers and youtubers is a good idea, in my opinion.
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