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Pirate Market
#31
(12-29-2021, 11:21 PM)Waffleloffle Wrote: the thing about the sec gear sale/traitor goods aspect of this black market concept is that you seem to be designing it to be used mainly by antags, but the truth of the matter is that it'll almost certainly be predominantly used by grayshirts, powergamers, and anyone else intent on getting their grubby hands on evil junk that they shouldn't usually have access to

I do trust the playerbase, and I believe that an overwhelming majority of them obey the rules and play in a postive manner most of the time. Usually when I see a traitor drop a katana or something, people who take the items usually just experiment with them, taunt beepsky, kill themselves with them, use them as status symbols, sell them to crewmates, save them for after the traditional end-of-round brawl, or get themselves killed with them (usually by thinking something like "Gee, with this C-saber I picked up, I'm invincible! Let's go to the ice moon!"). I don't like keeping fun toys away from the good players because some nerds (who usually get themselves banned anyway) might use them the wrong way.

Anyway, here's a peek at my work in progress for Mad Maddy. Wrestler space pirate. This is more or less what comes to mind when I think of the random traders, like 100% Zambini or Zesty Susan or whatever. After I'm done with this passion project I might start making sprites for those. They'll pump iron with their cyborg arm for their 4 frame animation, and I need ideas for chestware.

[Image: 0Wn4Iqf.png]

So, this is the trader that specialises in telesci and telesci needs a lot more thought. I want people to weigh in with what each telesci zone should be worth and what items he should buy (Keep in mind that he should advertise loot in the zone. He should buy three tiers of items from each zone:
- "Reward" items at or near the end of a zone for big bucks. The weird meat weapon from the meat station is the perfect example. Mars station is fairly easy and the reward is a big pile of cash, look at that and balance accordingly - the more difficult or time consuming the zone the higher the value.
- Useful items from partway through the zones or the debris field, like soviet space suits from meat station or flare gun from the VR dungeon. Middling to low reward, something for a partial success or to shine a light on some commonly missed item.
- Weird flavour items, like the unique pen on the solarium or the eerily realistic latex mask from the biodome. Small reward, mainly just to give people an excuse to dedicate a slot to these items if they weren't going to bring them to the station already. Shouldn't offer a lot for these, this is mainly to advertise them.

Obviously, this will need to be spoiler free. If there's any places that don't have a reward that fits any of these catagories I can sprite and design something to be added there.

Also, is Katmondu permanantly removed? Literally herding cats through telesci would be funny to see.

As for what I want Mad Maddy to sell, I have no idea. What do telescience nerds and space diner regulars want? First aid kits and space suits? Solderable machine parts? Maybe sell some wrestling themed items?
#32
I mean sure maybe the grand majority of the playerbase follows the rules like good little noodles, but the feature you're designing seems to greatly reward those that don't
#33
Same is true of a lot of goon's more arcane systems. You can become extremely dangerous and single handedly end a round in the shittiest way by mastering DWAINE, materials, secret chemistry, toxins, bartending, wrestling, surgery and even juggling. This isn't a balanced game and system mastery is rewarded with great power, and I think people who learn to game the economy and use the stock market should also be trusted to handle that power. The small scale cash economy in goonstation is actually really healthy, people value cash enough to want to keep it around for vendor stuff or ore, and I see people tip each other pretty often. But there's not a lot of stuff the high end of the scale to interest people, people don't really give a shit about credit values above 5,000 credits and currently the main rewards for amassing a lot of money in cargo are furniture and clothes. Which are cool, but hardly exciting in the same way doing science or engineering is.



I know you're afraid of rounds being ruined by people overusing and abusing this stuff. I understand where you're coming from, and I'm sure you have plenty of negative memories associated with dragon's breath, or rajaijah, or canister bombs. I just don't think the occasional bad round outweighs their existence. The deeper someone delves into Goon's deeper and more rewarding systems, the more they value their time on the server. They're not going to grief the station constantly and if they were, we'd see maxcaps and hellfires end the round much more often than we do. A truly dedicated player could learn to set off a nuclear charge, or learn the solarium and grief the entire server by triggering constant disaster rounds.



At the end of the day, the worst thing a griefer can do is end a handful of rounds in an unsatisfying way for a few people and there's countless other ways to do that. The stakes are not high and someone killing you in a farting spaceman game is not the end of the world. At worst you'll just have to wait until next round. I don't think this should get in the way of adding new features. If it proves to be a problem, it can be nerfed or removed.

For further reference, here's what CARL sells. None of it is secret, and it's gated behind getting an emergency spacesuit, a can of air and an agent card. I'm looking to put a weaker version closer to the station without the agent card requirement. For what it's worth, I think my price for the HoS hat better suits its rarity than CARL's price. It shouldn't be worth less than a third of a gold bullion, or buy you two thirds of one part of an armored space suit. And looting/buying from security is already encouraged by this merchant and it doesn't seem to derail rounds.
https://wiki.ss13.co/Syndicate_Items#Items_CARL_Sells
#34
Carl requires you to be an actual traitor to buy from them now or he limits his stock - because of abuse
#35
(12-30-2021, 05:51 AM)Cal Wrote: Carl requires you to be an actual traitor to buy from them now or he limits his stock - because of abuse

You're getting it backwards. CARL has been around for the better part of a decade now, he has always allowed anyone who phase shifts or gets and agent card in. There was never any incident to my knowledge that abused flare gun ammo, torpedos or spy stickers to the extent they absolutely 100% must have He had an expanded stock added for antags of all types (and not just traitors, sleeper agents and gang members get access to the expended stock too despite not being able to buy agent cards) as an additional reward for them. The detective *starts the round* with spy stickers and usually just leaves them on his desk, that's how little they're valued.

On the other hand, the explosive ammo and best-in-slot space armor have both proven to be problems in the past, and the fix was to make them cost 40k each. I think that sets a good precedent for gating deadly traitor gear behind an in-game paywall as a countermeasure for abuse.
#36
You haven't bought anything from C.A.R.L. recently, have you?  All the good stuff is only for traitors now, it's been that way for months.
#37
I saw someone rush syndicate command armor as non antag every round for like a week (this was before the cost was increased), and this was on roleplay too. If you cant have roleplayers behave and rush gamer loot every round, how can you expect the same from classic, where semi regularly people powergame to hunt antags (these syndicate items youre suggesting to be purchasable would be very good for that).
#38
(12-30-2021, 07:45 AM)Mouse Wrote: You haven't bought anything from C.A.R.L. recently, have you?  All the good stuff is only for traitors now, it's been that way for months.

I've been playing on goonstation for probably around 6 or 7 years now, since before cogmap 1 was introduced. I'm well aware of the power level of the debris field merchants and I've already looked at the code to balance this stuff. I put a lot of effort into designing this stuff and I'd like a little bit of respect here, come on. Some of the complaints here are verging on hysteria and any admin will back me up, for every rule breaker who causes trouble in a round there's usually 60 or so players who are having fun without breaking the rules or antagonising other players. In peak hours around 130 people play on goon 1, and rule breaking doesn't even happen every round (Going to stress here that I mean *the server rules*, not space law. Space law exists to be broken and dealing with minor breaches of it is supposed to be the main reason security even exists, hence why they're encouraged to brig people for 2-5 minutes). Also CARL has never been traitor only, agent cards are avaliable elsewhere and the phase walk gene can get you through. Historically it's been open to other things like RCD use too.

(12-30-2021, 11:24 AM)Ikea Wrote: I saw someone rush syndicate command armor as non antag every round for like a week (this was before the cost was increased), and this was on roleplay too. If you cant have roleplayers behave and rush gamer loot every round, how can you expect the same from classic, where semi regularly people powergame to hunt antags (these syndicate items youre suggesting to be purchasable would be very good for that).

That's how secrets work on goonstation. People work out how a system works, they work out how to do it very quickly and do it over and over again over the course of the next couple of weeks, and they experiment with them. Most of the time this doesn't cause any problems. Look at people learning how to do the ice moon or something for example, you see people approach the feature out of curiousity, get hooked, and spend a lot of shifts in a row trying to uncover exactly how the feature works, then they work it out and play with the rewards for a couple weeks. You're only noticing the occasional bad player who abuses it.

If people are handling contraband constantly and causing trouble round after round, that's either an in-character issue for security to deal with (take their shit and throw them in the brig). If they step over the line and break server rules or make a habit of murdering people it's an issue for the admins. Ahelp is always avaliable and most ahelps result in the player improving their behaviour after a light warning, it's not just for requesting bans.

(12-30-2021, 12:40 AM)Waffleloffle Wrote: I mean sure maybe the grand majority of the playerbase follows the rules like good little noodles, but the feature you're designing seems to greatly reward those that don't

They are all good noodles and they will follow the rules. Even for people who regularly get banned, they generally make an effort to follow them almost all the time. Admins will back me up on this. If you think otherwise, you are just wrong and you should maybe stop reading the ban appeal forum and dead/OOC chat so much - they paint a very out-of-context and negative picture of the in game experience.

Anyway, we've talked the issue to death already and none of the people complaining about potential rulebreaking or powergaming is an admin. I'd like to move on from that issue entirely unless an admin pops in to say that it's a serious enough issue to stop the feature being implemented for a trial run. I'm wanting to expand the goon economy and credit system into something people actually use and engage with, not pre emptively stop potential space crimes like I'm in the minority report.
#39
(12-30-2021, 02:32 PM)Deadvickyart Wrote: Also CARL has never been traitor only, agent cards are avaliable elsewhere and the phase walk gene can get you through. Historically it's been open to other things like RCD use too.

Are you familiar with this change?
https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/5299

(12-30-2021, 02:32 PM)Deadvickyart Wrote: That's how secrets work on goonstation. People work out how a system works, they work out how to do it very quickly and do it over and over again over the course of the next couple of weeks, and they experiment with them. Most of the time this doesn't cause any problems. Look at people learning how to do the ice moon or something for example, you see people approach the feature out of curiousity, get hooked, and spend a lot of shifts in a row trying to uncover exactly how the feature works, then they work it out and play with the rewards for a couple weeks. You're only noticing the occasional bad player who abuses it.

If people are handling contraband constantly and causing trouble round after round, that's either an in-character issue for security to deal with (take their shit and throw them in the brig). If they step over the line and break server rules or make a habit of murdering people it's an issue for the admins. Ahelp is always avaliable and most ahelps result in the player improving their behaviour after a light warning, it's not just for requesting bans.

While historically the view was usually to just deal with individual feature-overusers/exploiters individually, over the last year or so, developmental priority has largely changed to tackling the sources of the problems instead. While this sort of perspective is what used to be what was enacted, I don't think it's applied nearly as much these days.

I know I'm not an admin, and you don't really want to engage with the issue outside of an admin popping in, but it's a pretty pivotal aspect of the concept IMO, and a decent number of those replying are people I've seen pretty active in discussion spaces - including where admins talk about how balance-related things are handled. Wanting to expand the economy features is a really good goal, but this is a pretty huge step if it would occur, so it's understandable people would be concerned about its negative effects.
#40
(12-30-2021, 02:32 PM)Deadvickyart Wrote: Also CARL has never been traitor only, agent cards are avaliable elsewhere and the phase walk gene can get you through. Historically it's been open to other things like RCD use too.

CARL himself is not technically antagonist only, but since July of this year, several items have been locked behind antagonist status (literally checking for the antagonist role in the user mind, there is no way to spoof it). The fact that it was accessible to breaking in is precisely why this was done. See #5299, which makes goods such as (but not limited to) the syndicate command armor, stealth storage, and 12 gauge AEX ammo traitor-only. Things like the flare gun ammo or spy stickers, which you mention earlier, were not restricted by comparison. Hopefully this explains what people have been talking about with CARL.

edit: I was sniped it's okay, he'll be up again before you know it
#41
(12-30-2021, 03:48 PM)cyberTripping Wrote:
(12-30-2021, 02:32 PM)Deadvickyart Wrote: Also CARL has never been traitor only, agent cards are avaliable elsewhere and the phase walk gene can get you through. Historically it's been open to other things like RCD use too.

CARL himself is not technically antagonist only, but since July of this year, several items have been locked behind antagonist status (literally checking for the antagonist role in the user mind, there is no way to spoof it). The fact that it was accessible to breaking in is precisely why this was done. See #5299, which makes goods such as (but not limited to) the syndicate command armor, stealth storage, and 12 gauge AEX ammo traitor-only. Things like the flare gun ammo or spy stickers, which you mention earlier, were not restricted by comparison. Hopefully this explains what people have been talking about with CARL.

edit: I was sniped it's okay, he'll be up again before you know it

I'm suggesting a change and addition to a completely different part of the game. If you feel this strongly about the original intent behind flappybatpal's patch here to the point that you feel the need to derail my thread with nitpicking about balance and rules even after I asked you not to, contact them and get them to argue instead. I am not using the relatively recent change of less than 30 lines of code in a rarely-used part of the game - that isn't even on the wiki yet - as game design gospel and I will not be modifying my patch to fit what a growing peanut gallery is assuming is a delicately balanced part of the game. It isn't, and if you're not an admin and it isn't a pressing rules issue, I don't want to argue about it any more. I've got other parts of this patch I want to put together.

(12-30-2021, 03:44 PM)saccharineChampion Wrote: I know I'm not an admin, and you don't really want to engage with the issue outside of an admin popping in, but it's a pretty pivotal aspect of the concept IMO, and a decent number of those replying are people I've seen pretty active in discussion spaces - including where admins talk about how balance-related things are handled. Wanting to expand the economy features is a really good goal, but this is a pretty huge step if it would occur, so it's understandable people would be concerned about its negative effects.

I'm aware. Bear in mind that from my end, and I know this isn't really happening, when i get hammered on one topic it feels like a bunch of people in the established club of coders talking behind my back and dogpiling me, it's pretty intimidating to get what feels like five or six conflicting responses based on a discord argument I'm not part of thrown about in the thread as if I should know exactly what you guys are talking about when you're referring to tiny code changes on a different site from 5-4 months ago. It's especially annoying when it's coupled with such a negative perspective of the player base. The people you're having playing with on the farting spaceman game all want to have fun too!

I disagree with your code philosophy, but I think there's plenty of room in such an open ended game for both approaches to coexist. When there's so much emergent gameplay, and people come *for* the emergent gameplay, I think predicting what a feature will be used for isn't worth doing. You give the players the tools, and see what they do with them. If it turns out to cause a lot of problems, you can deal with them as and when they arrive, but until then it can't do too much harm. Rounds last an hour and a half at most, so all the potential damage

I also disagree with the implied stance that the space free market should have consistent rules, regulations and values. Why shouldn't one merchant pay extra for a HoS beret than another one? Why shouldn't there be loopholes for exhanging manual labour (and yes clicking/dragging crates is simulated manual labour, you get a simulated paycheck and everything) for vast riches if you know who to sell to? Why shouldn't you find a shifty merchant in the space diner who's willing to source questionably-obtained electronic goods in exchange for office equipment you liberated from your job in the robot lab, with no questions asked? That's how it works in the real world, after all. Besides, it's more fun than never letting the public experiment with this stuff.




Anyway, I'm working on telesci and finalising the art on Mad Maddy and Monty, opinions about what I should sprite for space loot are what I want to focus on right now, and once I make a sprite for the console itself I'll write up a beta patch that introduces just the bare bones as a proof of concept (locking out the controversial stuff to begin with). I want to get that 15 minute rotation thing down, and see how easy that is for players to interact with before making final decisions on adding powerful items to the game. I'll try to get that all done before the 8th.
#42
Got some sprites done, and a location picked out for the space pirate market. Essentially, it's 4 traders sharing one location, so think of this as an expansion to the merchants already there (bombini, shady biff, the chef, and the rotating merchants). I'll show you guys the one I've finished for the blob, and break down key aspects of my design.

[Image: aIKcigG.gif]

Basic shape is based on the current console frame.

The top left will have an animated sprite (4 frames) for each trader, on a large screen. and hopefully catching people's eye. It'll mean you can tell what merchant's avaliable without having to interact.

Top right is literal spaghetti code. Lines of highly illegal space-wizard programming protect the anonymity of everyone involved, and it works by transmitting your purchase through a secure pasta-cable connection.

Bottom left is the insert slot for items and money.

Bottom right is usually the keyboard, the inside of the console when it's screwdrivered.


[Image: cfiM7He.gif]

And here's a sprite for when it's dead. By popular demand, I'm going to make the console murderable by stealing the ultra advanced graphics card inside. If security wants to deactivate the merchant and hide all the ultra-fast graphics cards so that it can't be used, then fine. They get a sad face for being jerks.

https://i.imgur.com/zTdrSUJ.png

Here's where I want the trader to go in game. In the empty dock between the mobile arcade and the space motel. There's loads of cool stuff in the updated space diner, but plenty of unused space. There's even a nonfunctional market area near there explicitly marked placeholder.
#43
Finished blob trader. Cargo requirements aren't for balance reasons, I just want to keep the diner as crate-free as possible.

This guy's pretty tame, and if the market's busy this is 15 minutes of someone offering largely benign stuff. Poison bottles 1 telecrystal and most canny players can replicate most of the recipes or better versions of half the potential poisons you get. The people who use these are largely stealth traitors, and vampires or changelings would enjoy easier access to them. Triplepiss is just fun and not seen often enough, and the rest just make hobo chemistry deeper.
Body parts should have a high value. Lets new players with low access practice hunting a person down and performing surgery on them. Practicing tracking people will train them to be good security guards, AIs and detectives as well as good predator antags like vampires or changlings. Rewards for doing surgery will encourage people to learn the surgery system.
Blob material isn't seen often and on blob rounds there's no time to experiment with the it. It's avaliable in a couple different places, but it isn't powerful enough or interesting enough to warrent its high rarity.

And, I think the rest is fairly uncontroversial.
[Image: t62TWfZ.gif]


[Image: aIKcigG.gif]

  Subject 11's Vault of Value

Avaliable:    XX:15  -  XX:29


Buys:



1,600,000 Credits - Heisenbee (Cargo Only)
"RARE BEAST. MAKES HONEY. TASTY."
360,000 Credits - [name]'s Heart
360,000 Credits - [name]'s Liver
260,000 Credits - [name]'s Spleen
200,000 Credits - [name]'s Lung
200,000 Credits - [name]'s Kidney
"DELICIOUS MEAT. ON STATION. FIND, AND BE REWARDED."

100,000 Credits - Human Body (Cargo Only)
"I REQUIRE MEAT. HUMAN BEST."

30,000 Credits - Monkey Body (Cargo Only)
15,000 Credits - Chicken Nugget
10,000 Credits - Bee (Cargo Only)
10,000 Credits - Chicken (Cargo Only)
"ANIMAL. IS GOOD TOO."

10 Credits per Unit - Blood

Sells:
100,000 Credits - Poison Bottle (50u)
Valued at 100k per Telecrystal
10,000 Credits - Bottle of Triplepiss (100u)
10,000 Credits - Bottle of Glowing Slurry (100u)
900 Credits - Bottle of Synthetic Flesh (100u)
900 Credits - Bottle of Charcoal (100u)
900 Credits - Bottle of MRSA (20u)
900 Credits - Bottle of Epinephrine (100u)
900 Credits - Bottle of Miasma (100u)
450 Credits - Bottle of Plasma (100u)
450 Credits - Bottle of Radium (100u)
400 Credits - Chunk of Blob
#44
Shouldn't chickens be worth more than chicken nuggets since you get multiple chicken nuggets from a single chicken?
#45
(01-01-2022, 01:45 AM)DioChasek Wrote: Shouldn't chickens be worth more than chicken nuggets since you get multiple chicken nuggets from a single chicken?

When mobs are sold it doesn't check whether they're alive or dead, so if people want to get a lot of use out of this trader I'm predicting we'll see a lot of creative and horrifying automated battery farms mass producing and selling chickens using mechcomp. I want to reward the people who pull this off but I want a larger reward for chefs and ranchers raising chickens "the right way".

In universe, just think of it as chewing the blob's food before mailing it off. It's got a lot of teeth but they're almost all fangs.


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