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Round lock for captain and no antag for captain
#1
Is this forums post needed? I dont know! Either way this is just for feedback on #6112 (no antag for cap) and #6113 (roundlock for cap). I dont feel like making two forum posts for both so uhh yeah. Anyways here it is, discuss.#6112
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#2
To add a little, the antag lock is for both RP and classic servers and the round lock was already on RP but would also be on classic now.

I don't really have a personal opinion on either, just getting the above out there.
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#3
Round-lock fine (rather not...but 20 rounds ain't so much anyway); but I do not see an antag block for captain being a good thing.
Following this line Imma re-post my stated opinion I have given on this on the GitHub PR, so it is out here in this forums discussion.

Captain. What shall a captain be?
The role is wonderful as it is. Various ways in which it can be directed; how about a new player exploring the station without any boundaries? Great. Good time to interact with folks.
What about a drunk captain, gulping down enough booze to get three new livers? Yep.
A competent captain taking on leadership; announcing stuff, changing laws when the station requires it - or just when it can be simply fun.

The place in which an antag captain shines the most is right in the middle between an incompetent and a competent captain.
A captain that looks to be incompetent is deceiving enough to enable a competent player to strike with chaos. This is what enables a great deal of fun with an antag captain.

It is not that you got more tools to simply murderbone, but you got the rank to talk to folks - to make them plan stuff.
For example...as a Captain you can go to QM - bark at them to pull together a party in the bar - and in the meantime prepare some gritty surprises for said party.
Manipulation - deceit - chaos.
A competent antag captain can be way more engaging than a murderboning one.
See - if you interact with folks to get them to do stuff on their own which in turn enables a plot to come together - that is great.

No other role is able to just waltz in various departments and demand changes. Do they go through? Maybe. Maybe not.
Smooth talking and being more than just an evil overlord villain - being a villain with character and strategy - that is the wonderful thing about antag captains.
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#4
No to both.

Captain needing to be more competent/reliable, is it necessary?

> ...credibility allowing them to guide the station better..

Captain has always been able To guide the station, As the PR itself notes, the Captain has influence. This is true of all Members of Command.
Fact of the matter is, captain is not a white-listed role; HoS players are inherently more trusthworthy by merit of their approval from Community and Admins.
There is NO such vetting process for Captain., neither such a process that 20-round lock, nor Non-antag status, can provide.

Taking away his antag status removes an element of intrigue from the game.
Not knowing whether Captain is an Antag, Incompetent, or plain malicious--it's fun.
I've had more problems with Malicious HoP's, than Captains. As Security, and HoS.

Moreover, take note, Security has 30-round lock and Non-antag status, yet problematic officers still show up.
While I concede, the round-locking has helped abate the frequency, I've still had more instances of abuse from my Officers to the crew, than the Captain players.

The PR indicates that Antags gnabbing captain and steamrolling early on is a problem. I ask, Has it?
It hasn't been a problem. I've rarely seen an Antag-captain do that.
Moreover, there are antagonists who intend to carry out Gimmicks for the round, and may therefore want the advantages that a Captain can provide.

I feel these views are coming from players who are very experienced and competent as traitors.
I remember, when I was starting out, I landed Captain-Antag and was very relieved. I had AA, gear, few people would question me, etc.
Yes, It is an advantageous start, but this is true of many roles, and is a part of playing SS13.
HoP has AA and a lot of influence, likewise to the Captain. All Command has access to AI core.
(I in fact, have had more RD/MD's perma-rouge the AI core than Captain players.)
Whereas Staff-assistant Antagonists have a jumpsuit, 120 creds, maint access, etc. How is this fair? It's not. Clearly.
Some starts are better than others. That's the fun.

I reiterate, no to both. We don't need round-locks or non-antag status for captain. It's not a problem, and there's no reason to make it a problem.

-------
Spelling.
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#5
(09-27-2021, 03:09 PM)Chayot Wrote: Whereas Staff-assistant Antagonists have a jumpsuit, 120 creds, maint access, etc. How is this fair? It's not. Clearly.
Some starts are better than others. That's the fun.

Completely agree with you on that one mate.

For experienced players it is also not a real issue to overcome the so called "worse-starts".
A staff assistant in the hands of an experienced player can still get a toolbelt, multitool, hand-teleporter and figure out the access-wire in less than 2 minutes into the round.
Having AA just enables easy access to lockers as far as I see it.

The energy-gun whilst it surely is a powerful tool - does not hold up for prolonged engagements obvious antags often have to face.
Sure - you can ambush a person or perhaps two if you got a few other tricks up your sleeve, but once an antag captain is found out the whole thing turns into a witch-hunt and the odds turn drastically.

I'd even go as far as to argue that the mechanic or scientist start is quite more powerful in terms of starting equipment and the general location and reputation in comparison to the captain.

Think outside the box and any challenge shall become obsolete. smile
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#6
Mhh, a lot of valid points from the posts above, some that I agree with too. But some pieces of info were left out, like the captain starting clothing having 11 total armor without even touching their locker. Personally, I would like a roundcap on captains, but not so much cause captains are dumb. I've been seeing a lot of shitter captains that are influencing the rounds of other people pretty badly, and not just a single captain in a once off scenario.

You ahelp them sure, but the gist is these have a pretty good chance of being first time players that don't even really know the game itself. This type of issue got exacerbated a LOT due to the security issues and fart not having proper timegating though, and you saw what happened with Security pretty quickly. I think it's similar with captain.

I think antag captain frustrates me due to the fact that I can't really stop them from doing whatever they want without feeling like i'm going to get bwoinked or punished, but goon is a freeform place and I think it's valid that things like this can happen. I don't think having a tiny 20 round requirement for captain is really going to change many of the situations that were put out above me either. Nobody is asking for a 3000 round super captain, and 20 rounds isn't really enough to become a "not idiot" at ss13 and be robust.

The egun on its own can kill without recharging, which is strong but they're the captain, kind of a nonissue. The issue is that the egun is also a strong taser, and we all know how strong stamina damage and stuns are. Not cause of being down on the ground, but because of what happens after. Antag cap, and regular cap tbf, have immediate access to stuns and cuffs, but they also have immediate access to things that make stuns equal immediate death when they become a traitor, which is a lot less fun since you have 0 input and are just being dragged around.

Basically, sometimes i get real salty at how many tools antag cap has, and would prefer if they got locked out of traitor SPECIFICALLY. All other antags like ww, vamp etc are fine by me. Watching antag cap pull out 5 different guns at 3 minutes is fuckin' toxic. Round lock would be nice.
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#7
Antagonist captains have roundstart
Stuns
Lethals
AA
Some degree of authority
Armor
+Antag Powers

These combined make it trivially easy to steamroll as a traitor captain. It also doesn’t really make sense that nt wouldn’t care to inspect their captains very thoroughly. Remove antag rolls from captains.

I don’t care very much about the round limit.
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#8
Personally disagree with both changes - this PR removes gameplay from newer players and offers little in return.

Goon1 is not enforced RP, players do not have to listen to orders and the Captain does not have any more credibility than what the player can sell them as having. It's a gimmick role, and will generally be ignored by players if what they ask is too tedious. Surprisingly they aren't ignored often, in my experience obviously reasonable/experienced Captain's get plenty of respect and people are usually more than happy to fill whatever small task they're asked to do - make meth, bananas, more teles/cloners, whatever.

Disagree with time-lock as some of the funniest and most earnest characters I've seen have come from new players who haven't learned bad habits/attitudes from older players yet. Captain's also just a great learning role, perhaps 5 rounds would be more appropriate.

Disagree that some antag rolls being easier than others is a bad thing - plenty of newer players enjoy playing the role, and in many cases that's directly facilitated by the crutch it provides. If experienced players find it unfun for lack of challenge they can do a gimmick or just de-select the role (low-pop edge-case not withstanding).

EDIT: 20 rounds @ 50 minutes is what, 16.6 hours? Things that take less time to become qualified at: scuba diving, felling lumber up to 380mm, advanced first aid, most real life jobs lol.
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#9
I also disagree with both changes. Antag captains have a lot of flexibility, and it leads to interesting experiences, more than murderboning in my experience. Also locking captain behind a round limit seems like an overreaction. Captains aren't meant to be competent. Every job a captain can do, someone else can also. They aren't critical for station running, so why stop new players from playing them.

If a change needs to be made about the captain having too good gear, then make the energy gun always be a sword. If an antag shouldn't have it for free, then neither should a non-antag.

I also feel that these changes will make the captain another sec, with better gear. At the minute, only the fact that cap might be an antag is stopping captains becoming another limb of sec.
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#10
on Classic, Captain does not hold the same kind of power that they do on the RP servers, so no real need for them to have real restrictions.
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#11
If you want this for just RP I'm fine with it because I don't care about RP BUT it should NOT be done on normal goon servers. Bumbling shitty captain is a funny tradition and I know claiming server tradition seems to upset some people but it just is and its funny.
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#12
bumbling shitty captains on main are more like accuse a guy of being a ling cus they farted on them and sic security on them and waste our time
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#13
I would rather have captain be a role that is seen with more respect, and have captains be more competent in general rather than simply be staffies with AA, lootboxes for traitors, or a really easy job to play traitor. I think that removing captain-antags would be a good step in this regard.

No opinion on round-locked captain.
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#14
As this thread has come up again, I feel like restating that I have never once in the five years I have played this game had a fun interaction with an antagonist captain. All of you are talking about fun things that an antagonist captain can theoretically do but every time I have seen an antagonist captain they have either:

  1. silently murderboned
  2. loudly murderboned


I maintain that if we decide to keep antag captains, the Egun needs to be removed and their armor should be nerfed to the same or worse than sec armor.
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#15
This is a point Ive seen often brought up in regards to antag captain which is technically true, antag captain does present a lot of unique roleplay opportunities. Antag captain has a lot of power and therefore can do a lot of gimmicks that other jobs cant. Well, this sounds good on paper right, if only we had some area for roleplay where we saw antag captain in action.. Wait a minute we have exactly that! The roleplay server! For a while, roleplay had antag captains like classic, so youd expect to see some high quality gimmicks on the roleplay server right? No not really, antag captains were honestly quite dull there too, by far most common route antag captains took was "haha the only way to stop me is by killing me I am the captain!!". Ask anyone who played on the roleplay server while antag captain was a thing on there (hi I was one of these people), and youd get near unanimous agreement that this wasn't that fun of roleplay and just quite bland. If you cant expect the roleplay server to have high quality roleplay with antag captain, how do you expect the classic server to do that?
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