[CLOSED PR] replace disarm roll with shove

[Azrun]

rng is not inherently bad.

rng is not inherently evil.

This.  I understand that people seem to be upset when the stars don't align their way but if the story played out the same way EVERY single time I think that isn't nearly as interesting.  Things should favor the skilled/prepared but the opportunity always have a chance is exciting.

Let me give ya'll a primo gameplay tip on how to use melee weapons.
...

That kinda feels like a great way to bypass the combat system.  Also it reminds me of playing GunZ: The Duel except with less hand cramping.  Having disarm favor/follow targeted limb could help with active hand swapping.  The addition of a minuscule cooldown on stowing/moving an item used could deal with removing the ability for the defender to respond in some fashion.  But.... I feel like I'm off topic. 

Just make it use the stamina system instead of removing it for not using the stamina system.

Factoring in Stamina, Force, and possibly weight-class/size make a lot of sense for the ability to disarm someone.  It is much easier to smack an object out of someone's hand with a bat compared to a lot of other objects.  And someone blocking with a shield or something should be able to hold out for a little while before becoming exhausted/overwhelmed by their assailant(s).

[cyberTripping]

When people say "RNG bad" they're not saying that SS13 should play out the exact same every single round. This isn't some NES game speedrun where the internal workings of the game have been honed down to a fine point and the single player has total control, it's a game that goes on for hours involving upwards of 50 people causing chaos. Things fundamentally cannot happen the same way twice. I don't think they're even saying that rand() calls or whatever Byond uses should be removed. What people are actually saying, or at least, should be saying, is "Agency good".

Player agency is a critical part of a game feeling good to play, particularly in freeform games like tabletop rpgs or, of course, ss13. People like feeling like they are the arbiters of their own fate. Here's the important trick: People like feeling that way, but it doesn't mean it has to be totally true.

If you're playing D&D, and your team is whittled down due to tactical mistakes that wouldn't have been an issue with slightly better rolls, you're going to feel pretty alright about the loss. Sure, you lost to RNG, but it was ultimately because of your own choices. In contrast, if your team lost to an otherwise completely normal fight where they did nothing unusual, as a result of the players rolling incredibly poorly and then the enemies getting a perfect 20-20 crit out of nowhere, youre going to feel a lot worse.

The point of this dumb rambling post I guess is that RNG checks should be tethered to things the player has control over, or at the very fucking least, the illusion of control, or partial control. Arbitrary flat chances for something to happen, unweighted by any other variables, feel like that second class of DnD example: You did nothing wrong and got punished for rolling bad. Tying what would be a flat chance to other variables brings it closer to the first: Sure you rolled bad, but considering the way you went about things, you were bringing the risk upon yourself. The same exact sequence of events can feel any number of ways based on how the underlying mechanics are viewed by the player, and I think the salt generated by disarm is a fine example.

anyways sorry for the rambling text, tl;dr: [flat chance] rng bad = agency good

[RGBDeadSilent]

Idea, disarm chance pushes a person backwards one tile and does stamina damage. If the stamina drops them below 0 stamina, they go prone as is right now. Maybe keep the current chance to knock prone normally that we already have, because pushing on someone to fart on their face is kinda a gross staple of the community.

Pushing someone against an object does bonus stamina damage, sort of like how the pulse rifle pushing someone into a wall does more than just disorientation, it usually stuns.
Push against a person, person pushed takes the normal disarm chance stamina drain, plus both people hit take bonus stamina damage from hitting each other.
Push a person against a wall, bonus stamina damage.
Pushed against a table, bonus stamina damage
Pushed against a vending machine, bonus stamina damage, treats the pushed player as if they had attacked the vending machine, rolling the % chance for it to fall on them.
Etc etc etc. Still has the RNG chance to just knock someone down, but doesn't fling their held item off into the distance. Perhaps even add a short disorientation effect if you collide with another object?

Ties disarm more into stamina and positioning, with that slight flavor of RNG that we already have. Maybe would make disarm even more powerful.

[THISISANICEGAME]

I see disarm as a defensive intent, someone with a csaber comes at you? Disarm them, the random chance allowed it to be used offensively, run into the nuke plant right, disarm one of the ops and that is a chance their weapon will fall out of their hands, that is bad imo, that op committed no mistakes, but someone ran in and clicked them, running into the middle of a shoot out in most other games would just get you killed. Combat in this game is a lot about not making mistakes and knowing how to not make them because if you make a mistake the punishment is always really severe, getting a really bad punishment such as having your weapon fly out of your hands without any mistakes from your part is really annoying.

I think the pushback is kind of bad there isn't really any situation you would want to pushback someone, 9/10 times they can just get back at you with little to no delay, maybe if it did a slowdown on them for 1 or 2 seconds to allow you to run or maybe one of the things Justin suggested.

[Tarmunora]

some good feedback from this thread
will be taking things back to the drawing board

[Mouse]

I see disarm as a defensive intent, someone with a csaber comes at you? Disarm them, the random chance allowed it to be used offensively, run into the nuke plant right, disarm one of the ops and that is a chance their weapon will fall out of their hands, that is bad imo, that op committed no mistakes, but someone ran in and clicked them, running into the middle of a shoot out in most other games would just get you killed. Combat in this game is a lot about not making mistakes and knowing how to not make them because if you make a mistake the punishment is always really severe, getting a really bad punishment such as having your weapon fly out of your hands without any mistakes from your part is really annoying.

I think the pushback is kind of bad there isn't really any situation you would want to pushback someone, 9/10 times they can just get back at you with little to no delay, maybe if it did a slowdown on them for 1 or 2 seconds to allow you to run or maybe one of the things Justin suggested.

Letting a staffie into melee with you is a mistake.

[Lady Birb]

I see disarm as a defensive intent, someone with a csaber comes at you? Disarm them, the random chance allowed it to be used offensively, run into the nuke plant right, disarm one of the ops and that is a chance their weapon will fall out of their hands, that is bad imo, that op committed no mistakes, but someone ran in and clicked them, running into the middle of a shoot out in most other games would just get you killed. Combat in this game is a lot about not making mistakes and knowing how to not make them because if you make a mistake the punishment is always really severe, getting a really bad punishment such as having your weapon fly out of your hands without any mistakes from your part is really annoying.

I think the pushback is kind of bad there isn't really any situation you would want to pushback someone, 9/10 times they can just get back at you with little to no delay, maybe if it did a slowdown on them for 1 or 2 seconds to allow you to run or maybe one of the things Justin suggested.

Letting a staffie into melee with you is a mistake.

Not always. Some nukeops and traitor items either require melee outright(eg. csaber, commander's sabre, riot baton, the entire knight loadout) or work best up close (shotgun, derringer, LMG, SMG, the entire firebrand kit). If getting into melee at all is considered a mistake then all these things would have no reason to exist.

Plus, as mentioned in other threads, right now if a lot is going on (eg. it's a nukeops round) you can shoot someone enough to put them into crit but they won't suffer any negative effects for several seconds cause lifeloop isn't updating, so you can dump an entire LMG belt into someone and still have them sprint straight at you a disarm you with one click.