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engineering dept change ideas
#1
as always, a discord conversation became larger and longer than the channel could reasonably document for Posterity, so this thread is to aggregate some ideas we (collective, whether you were in that discord conversation or not!) would want to float about how to give the role of engineer more to do, how to give the department of engineering more depth, and how to expand or implement new mechanics related to those goals.

i'll update with some old thread links to things we brought up again;

ideas:

small, short-term things:

one idea was that some roles might need consolidation and the prime ones to consider would be consolidating construction worker into engineer or mechanic into engineer.
more construction spots on different stations so people have more space within the bounds of the actual station itself to work with and dont have to rely on having externals and whatnot to build something new?

bigger picture things:

another idea was reworking the depth and structure of construction to be more of a contractor-type role with two or three people working cooperatively on projects and maybe adding some cool mechanics to the game like wallpaper. this might be cool to work in with concrete stuff too, once that gets sorted. this idea is 100% not mine and originally from Frank Stein on the cworker-rebalancing/rework thread! 
one related idea is "i think probably the biggest question is how to appropriately lock the rcdd or its features in a way that accessible to at least one other Not A CE Mysterious happenings! cause CE rushing both RCDs then like. changing laws and Destroying AI upload sucks and with no one else able to undo that it sucks More since im not fond of hitting 2k health off a door". DataErr0r suggested a head-locked QM crate with this, or perhaps a head-locked QM crate with an RCD while the RCDD became the CE's version of the RCD?

last idea i have to offer for now would be a very basic rework of loot and drop rates in the asteroid belt to encourage more off-station and non-magnet mining and change up gameplay and round routines for miners. we have a ton of cool prefabs out in space already, we just need some more incentive for non-traitor miners to head out there, and potentially more/better ore drops would be a good way to encourage that?
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another one about borg part armor; maybe a tie-in to robotics that doesnt take away from medical utility of borging is good? okay i also just had this idea and this is a personal interest and Very Poorly (!) fleshed out b/c i dunno what i'm doing but i also really like the idea of a geodetic survey mission or something of the sort to a planet surface to work on mapping type things. i think this could be a REALLY cool way to move forward some other ideas people bounced around about station-wide type missions for the rp servers, and could maybe also utilize some of the neat stuff Sov's been doing with generated terrains? and maybe it would have a fun tie-in to ranching or something where you could fish there for different kinds of fishes not available on the normal station z level. it could also potentially hopefully maybe revive the NSS Artemis project Urs started or be a totally different system but one that compliments it and expands great exploration potential. also atlas is a cool map, maybe it could be implied these are the types of places atlas seeks to chart? who knows! i don't!
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all thoughts welcome. this thread post is still a wip, so i'll have some more edits here and share subsequent ideas later!

a total sidenote, but wiki love for the engi department is also Very Good! potentially moving the TEG stuff to its own page and giving a brief summary of each of the gases and what they do in a burn might be handy! that way people can know the basics and start the engine without spoiling the work of optimization! just a simple table with the gases on the main teg page since currently there's a separate gas page that lists very basic descriptions of them but not always how they interact in an engine; and i usually only remember/find this page when im stumbling around in the toxins part of the wiki vs. engineering
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#2
Thanks for posting this, these are some interesting ideas.

Relating to the engineer/mechanic merge, if you want to do mechcomp or packet related things the jobs feel a lot more different. I'd mirror zjdtmkhzt's comment from July. I would be worried that engineering might be full of people who want to do mechcomp and engines get left off. It's nice having mechanic as a mostly 'mess around' job like scientist so you can build neat contraptions without worrying that other people need you. Mechanic does have some duties, but replacing devices, fixing APC's, and repairs not covered by engineers are typically quick fixes and not required too often (at least on RP). I've never played construction, so I can't say much either way about that.

Relating to mining changes, I personally find one of the main draws of using the magnet over the asteroid field is the availability of starstone. It is a lot easier to find with the magnet, and as far as I know, outside of the magnet you only find it in locked crates. Sometimes I want starstone to be a hero to cargo, sometimes to mess with infusions, and sometimes to mess with material science. Either way, if you are looking for starstone, you probably want to be on the magnet. Perhaps one way to encourage people to head out to the field would be sprinkling some rare starstone deposits across the field. Maybe 5-10 for the full Z level? It could be hidden as gem deposits like uqill to prevent people from rushing it with MESON goggles/upgraded pod sensors. I don't know if others have the same reasons for using the magnet, so I'm just speaking for myself.
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#3
I mean, if people don't want to touch the engine that's an issue with the engine.
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#4
My Two Cents

Engineering with the recent Engine changes is in a weird state while people figure out how exactly it works and how to more effectively apply it to chamber burns. Along with that, I have noticed a lack of engineering retention on the RP servers, with most newer engineers going into cryo or disappearing/SSDing after some time. To takle the second problem, I think something along the lines of nef's idea of a planet to build a small outpost and explore on would be a nice thing, as it also works to teach them about construction for any hull breaches that occur. I also think giving engineering some fishing rods would be nice, as it's another way to pass time and have fun while waiting for engineering to be needed somewhere/until someone has a idea of something to build.

Engineer and Mechanics merging is something that I would be fine with, but I think for the sake of organization, Mechanics should still remain, as another system for newer engineers to learn is going to be a bit difficult to teach from the perspective of a CE. I also think the mining Z level in space does need a bit more danger and as a result a increase in rewards. Ideally this would be done via drones or space mines(?).

I also think there should be some sort of event that breaks the pipes. Something to give engineering more maintenance to do that the Borgs and AI cannot, similar to junction boxes on manta or finding hotspots on Oshan. Also, I feel engineering should be able to build more things such as wooden tables, comfy chairs, non steel beds, and so on.
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#5
I'm not going to go too in depth on all these ideas, but the mechanics/cw -> engineers I do want to talk about.

Right now the role between solely a mechanic and an engineer are vastly different at their core, even despite packetnerdery and major mechcomp usage. Engineers are meant to keep the station powered and operational, mostly through running the engine and/or solars and keeping SMESes set, while also keeping the place in one piece and full of air, but outside of breach repairs they shouldn't be doing much past that, which is where mechanics come in to set up the wiring and network the power grid to different departments as well as get computer systems and such running and working. Then you throw mechcomp and packets into what Mechanics can do and it's a pretty clear difference between the two IMO.

Now CW though isn't much different from what engineers do, but rather than strictly repairs they do more renovation and additional station construction, but without any real responsibility. So in my mind it only makes more sense to maybe merge CW into engineering and maybe put some power based version of the RCDD or whatever is used to change floor and wall designs in with the standard engineer kit, but requiring engineers to build stuff by hand. This would give Engineering Storage some proper usage beyond being broken into by random crew and expand what the engineer role can and would be expected to do without removing a fundamentally different or responsible/important role.

As for mining and cargo I would love for them to have far more depth than they do now, especially per say in the way of working together to maybe be able to hand manufacture industrial and uniquely strong items and products to either be sold or used in collecting better materials and valuables.
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#6
I think merging access between the two jobs feels like a decent compromise. As has been started they have pretty different roles but I don't know if there is a reason to silo then away from equipment/resources given how much overlap makes sense thematically. There is something to be said about cooperation but it is very unsatisfying asking for resources/access from the other department... waiting... waiting.. giving up and just breaking in.  

Engineers start with tools that allow them to get wherever, seems like easy mode for instead of being a staff assistant. There have typically been 0-2 engineers who actually do anything power related in the rounds I've played since I've started. The exceptions to this had been a handful of rounds where CE takes charge and organizes the department in the first 2min.  I agree with Leeanei, that seems more like an issue with the game mechanics, or at a minimum interest.  And with enough experience all the power sources can be setup by one person pretty easily and often times you pretty much done at that point.

I like where you are going with mining but I think there needs to be more department that want... nay need resources from mining.  Preferably nothing where they are reliant but it would make their lives a lot easier.

I really like the idea of geodetic survey mission as a thematic way to integrate the biome development in standard gameplay loop.  And mechanically rancher seems like a slam dunk in regards to a job who would want to try to organize something for their own benefits.
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#7
(02-20-2021, 10:00 PM)Azrun Wrote: I think merging access between the two jobs feels like a decent compromise. As has been started they have pretty different roles but I don't know if there is a reason to silo then away from equipment/resources given how much overlap makes sense thematically. There is something to be said about cooperation but it is very unsatisfying asking for resources/access from the other department... waiting... waiting.. giving up and just breaking in.  


I think the biggest reason would be gas access combined with mech comp tools but if you're in engineering you have all the resources to easily break in and grab all those things, so there's really no reason they shouldn't just share access to each others work spaces

(02-20-2021, 10:00 PM)Azrun Wrote: I really like the idea of geodetic survey mission as a thematic way to integrate the biome development in standard gameplay loop.  And mechanically rancher seems like a slam dunk in regards to a job who would want to try to organize something for their own benefits.

That's actually a really cool idea and something I think could serve as a "round goal" that ties a lot of jobs and their work together

Imagine having to find habitable locations in space and establish little colonies during the course of a round

Science finds the place
Mining and Engineering establish the foundation
Medical and Agriculture/Hospitality make it livable
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#8
Personally I'm a big fan of merging mechanics and engineers, because I also love versatile jobs (imagine if scientist was split into artifact researcher, chemist and toxins researcher) This is a good compromise because more often than not mechanics end up doing engineering's job while engineers wander around aimlessly because it's the CE that usually takes care of the engine so most engineers don't have much to do (because they feel more commited to running the engine than repairing the station)
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#9
Some thoughts from Eagletanker:

A lot of smaller stuff.
Re add CW but in a changed form so it can build and lead building efforts. Make more stuff break often to get repairs being done. Get people to stop killing Mr Rathen. Junction boxes are on more maps and they now take precentages rather than just a set amount. A power grid that changes as the round goes on, making managing power a thing that required on bigger pops. Passive Repressuization at the cost of power. Making power a resource rather than a thing in abundance as so as you reach the magic total of 500 kWs. Move away from the Engine being the one big thing cause there’s not a noticeable effect on the round compared to every other department. Sci? They got Chems and other good stuff that they can play with in with work. Med? A bad Medbay means people start dying and staying dead. You also see people get healed. Civ? It’s Civ. Mining gets more upgrades and Cargo gets more gear to play with. Mechanics have mech comp and build machines.
Engineers just make power and they don’t have any other noticeable impact cause if there’s no engine the lights are still on unless it’s Oshan or Manta. Minor little things to do and tinker with would give it a better game play loop.
Also remove engineer borgs Stacks of stuff.
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#10
More thoughts from me but not formatted cause am on mobile right now.
Expeditions would be great and it would be awesome if it was engineering’s thing. I also think something that’s a goal to repair would be good and that gives a noticeable boon to the station (maybe something to do with the unfinished Cruisers hint hint)

Make Mechanics and Engineers rely on each other more. Don’t merge them because they have completely different goals and mindsets but make them more dependant on each other. If mechs are supposed to be electrical engineers they should act like them. If engineers are supposed to be more civil engineers then make them more like that.

I think Electronic Round Peristant pets could be a cool thing for engineers to, and they level up and stuff based of repairs and other things outside of the engine.

Right now the biggest problem is you have 5 people sitting around with nothing to do while 1 person does the engine which is the only thing to do until the bombs drop if they ever do. There should be more team work and more of a idea of “I am maintaining a space station that was built 20-30 years ago” rather than just watching a engine and then cryoing cause your bored.
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#11
i've always loved the singularity engine. it's my favorite. it's dangerous. it's deadly. it's what you think of when you think of ss13.

the gas engine, on the other hand, is awkward. there's a reason why atmospherics was cut from here. it's a very niche job, along side the lag as a consequence of filling the station with gas. i don't think anyone mourned the loss of the atmospherics job/department. atmos has historically been clunky as hell. that said, i don't think it should be removed just because i don't like it.

i think there should be an alternate way though, on maps that use the gas engine. obviously this should be inferior to a hellburn, but, it should still be able to do the job. just something that's for people like me who just roll their eyes and just don't want to bother figuring out atmos. this could involve interplay from electronics, mining (or qm if there's no miners) to get the ball rolling.
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#12
i really like that idea a lot.

one of the coolest things to me to come out of adding SWORD to the game was the potential power functionality of it. what if this concept was expanded so that mining could go off and collect or fabricate parts for a "station cell" or something as an alternative way to power the station? i think there's a lot of cool stuff that could come from something like that but i most clearly see it resolving three problems:

a. it gives an alternative way to power the station aside from the teg and moves powering the station out from being solely the purview of /just/ the engineers in the engineering department; it allows it to be an optional department-wide collaboration.
- (the newer teg revision wrt matsci incorporation kind of moves in this direction, although i rarely find myself doing matsci tegs until late-round)

b. it gives miners an (optional) reason for maybe seeking out tougher boss fights or to go exploring if the pieces for something like that were scattered between different mobs and locations. sometimes people ask for more mob encounters as miners like other servers have, and i'm not a huge fan of them being mandatory or random chance, but if they were an optional thing as a part of a bigger goal like this, i think it would work really well

c. it could potentially encourage a perspective where it'smore normalized for CEs to go off-station exploring or adventuring to help collect or fight then; something i and i think a few other people who play CE have mentioned is that we don't like being expected to sit on the teg all round long, we want to run around and do things too, and this is a perfect option for that!

this is a really good idea! and definitely i think one of the more actionable ones to come from the dicussion thus far. thank you so much for sharing.
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