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let's talk cyborg
#1
so, me and a few other people on discord noticed a trend of the admin/dev team effectively shutting down a lot of discussions and changes regarding cyborgs, especially security and syndicate borgs, both of which are very underdeveloped and not as useful or fun as they could be.

i think a lot of this stems from how powerful borgs can make themselves and how a borg that's fuckin STACKED themselves on upgrades enough can be effectively unkillable and inescapable, and that's probably put a lot of people off anything that'd make borgs any more powerful than they currently are

1. the expansion upgrade. honestly just remove or severely limit this thing because being able to have every single upgrade at once is NOT okay
2. upgrade compatibility. or rather, the opposite. make certain upgrades incompatible with eachother, so you can't have every single defensive upgrade and/or speed and/or repair pack and be an unstoppable menace to society
3. art cells. these things are nice to have, but are also fucking absurd in that they make recharging stations halfway obsolete because you're already recharged at 1800 megafarts per second. maybe make them have side effects/downsides at the cost of their high max power and recharge rate?
4. chem borg limitations. do something to limit what a (un-emagged) borg can do with reagent holders, such as being unable to use smoke and foam or being unable to pour beakers on someone, limiting them to more tedious methods of chem application that can be escaped from by the average human. or just remove the chemistry module that works too


now to talk about improving the borg experience
 
1. default to standard chem ui. the borg chem ui is atrocious and nobody likes it. seriously. how this is still in the game is beyond me. borgs can already use the standard chem ui with a few extra steps and nobody seems to have a problem with it, so... why not just default to that?
2. syndicate borgs. right now syndie borgs are just regular borgs with traitorvision and only seeing traitors as human, as well as an inaction clause and a law to stay somewhat quiet. not many people know this because nobody uses syndieborgs. maybe make syndicate cyborgs use modified modules with a few extra toys or less limitations to set them apart a bit more from regular borgs
3. give secborg their fucking masking tape you evil creatures. they can already summon beepsky to do the dirty work for them, why not skip a middleman when it comes to restraining?
4. make dying as borg less painful. come on, their heads and brains don't even default to the top of the item stack they leave behind when killed! that, and there's little consequence to just eating their brain and taking them out of the round permanently. plus the existence of bugs than can also permanently kill a borg without any intention to do so from humans, which people are reluctant to fix for one reason or another, such as brain code resembling a very large bowl of spaghetti, except without the 'bowl' part because that implies some uniformity. mayhaps a way to make borg death less permanent, and make their brains always infect their eaters with (unextractable) kuru or nanomachines (resulting borg potentially controlled by the owner of the consumed brain so people don't just eat borg brains to easily be borged) so that people can't just take a player completely out of the round so easily without consequence

please feel free to leave more ideas in the comment section below. borg friends are welcome
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#2
(12-25-2020, 05:10 AM)Mopcat Wrote: 3. give secborg their fucking masking tape you evil creatures. they can already summon beepsky to do the dirty work for them, why not skip a middleman when it comes to restraining?

This server doesn't have security cyborgs.
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#3
(12-25-2020, 05:10 AM)Mopcat Wrote: so, me and a few other people on discord noticed a trend of the admin/dev team effectively shutting down a lot of discussions and changes regarding cyborgs, especially security and syndicate borgs, both of which are very underdeveloped and not as useful or fun as they could be.

i think a lot of this stems from how powerful borgs can make themselves and how a borg that's fuckin STACKED themselves on upgrades enough can be effectively unkillable and inescapable, and rather than actually look into this issue and balance it, the admins have taken the stance of "no just don't fucking touch those stinky bots". so instead, let's actually look at the issues surrounding borg:
I can't really tell if this post is genuinely looking for ideas or is a 'masked' jab at certain admins/devs that you may not get along with. Not a very good way to start the post. 

Can you actually refer to a specific situation where this happened? As far as I'm aware, we try to be as accommodating as possible with suggestions and enjoy talking to players about existing or potential game mechanics.

Quote: 3. give secborg their fucking masking tape you evil creatures. they can already summon beepsky to do the dirty work for them, why not skip a middleman when it comes to restraining?
 

Not particularly fond of this one as borgs aren't really there to 'apprehend' criminals - that isn't the job of brobocop. Sure, it can assist them with prints and the like, but I don't really think it should be getting physical and detaining/transferring prisoners.

Quote: 4. make dying as borg less painful. come on, their heads and brains don't even default to the top of the item stack they leave behind when killed! that, and there's little consequence to just eating their brain and taking them out of the round permanently. plus the existence of bugs than can also permanently kill a borg without any intention to do so from humans, which people are reluctant to fix for one reason or another, such as brain code resembling a very large bowl of spaghetti, except without the 'bowl' part because that implies some uniformity. mayhaps a way to make borg death less permanent, and make their brains always infect their eaters with (unextractable) kuru or nanomachines (resulting borg potentially controlled by the owner of the consumed brain so people don't just eat borg brains to easily be borged) so that people can't just take a player completely out of the round so easily without consequence

I like the idea of someone being infected by nanomachines if they eat a cyborg brain, but afaik don't medical/robotics staff get a PDA alert when a cyborg dies? It used to be that the head could be destroyed entirely, but now I'm pretty sure the brain survives everything.
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#4
Gerhanzo - you know they mean brobo, the one with sec Comms.
Enakai - what was the point of the masking tape being added it it's never used (yes I know admin spawn only but let's be real that's never being used) and no brain doesn't survive everything. I've been gibbed several times from a single explosion.
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#5
(12-25-2020, 05:42 AM)Tiggersaurus Wrote: what was the point of the masking tape being added it it's never used (yes I know admin spawn only but let's be real that's never being used)

Incremental change. The tool can be added to cyborgs by admins mid-round and then observed as to how it's used.

I have done this once since the short time ago they were merged, and it wasn't great. While the removal timer is short they can drag/push you around to reset it as always. This resulted in significantly more deaths caused by AI/cyborgs.

I'm intending on doing so again in the near future, maybe with some tweaks.
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#6
Closest thing to secborgs we have is the Brobocop, which in my opinion is really underwhelming.
they have sec comms but no sec tools, so i find that strange.
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#7
(12-25-2020, 05:42 AM)Tiggersaurus Wrote: Gerhanzo - you know they mean brobo, the one with sec Comms.
touche, forgot that addition, I'm still used to identifying them as goofy burgerbots.

though I still don't personally consider brobots anywhere near a security cyborg, even if they have some miscallenous tools allowing them to sidekick or help out the department, as they're still equally an amalgam of other gimmick departments ala catering. If anything, they feel closer to a detective. Giving them direct apprehension tools seems like a "should secborgs/a watered down version of secborg be given another try" kind of deal.
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#8
Just wanna say, I've been around long enough to have seen when we did have Sec borgs.

Imagine all your current grievances with Sec, but now that officer can remotely bolt and shock doors, among other advantages.

Borgs are better off as support units. That said, dang it would be nice to have the barrier shield somehow as a borg
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#9
No sec borgs.
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#10
Quote: and rather than actually look into this issue and balance it, the admins have taken the stance of "no just don't fucking touch those stinky bots".

What a wonderful Christmas present; to not only diminish the team's existing cyborg rework ideas and efforts, but also turn around and make up a team stance on the matter that doesn't exist and is the exact opposite of the team's expressed opinions.

This certainly endears me to your suggestions.
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#11
While I don't mind the nonexistence of Security Cyborgs, because are truly too powerful, I want to see some more development into Cyborgs. There's a lot of bugs surrounding them that can cause them to be unable to be revived or just ruin their rounds, there's a lot of features I feel could really enhance them and honestly I really wish Syndicate Cyborgs were a thing, even if you have to limit it to a 12 credit Traitor item or Nukie only. I've seen a lot of nice sounding silicon PRs get left in the dust when there's so much potential for improvement.
  • Fix all the Spontaneous Core brain bugs. So many times I've seen them not work when a Cyborg gets put into a new shell, requiring admin intervention. Might happen to other brains too, but mainly seen it with Spontaneous. There's a lot of weird bugs surrounding them for some reason.
  • Fix the Cyborg death alert spam. Every now and then a Cyborg dies and it sends death alerts forever, forcing all of Medbay to ditch their PDAs or mute the group. Might only happen when the head is destroyed and the rest of the body is intact.
  • Streamline Cyborg clicking and dragging. Vast majority of Cyborgs still don't know you can use ladders, open morgue and so on. Also let them empty boxes onto the floor please. MAYBE let them drag people into clone scanners and genetek scanners. It's incredibly obscure what you can and can't interact with because some things you can shift click which nobody knows about, and others you just can't.
  • Tie PDA groups into modules, give all PDA groups (muted by default?) to AI. The fact that silicon mains have to every round setup a MechComp contraption for this is very telling that it needs to be a thing already. Also give them party line, so they can suffer. Silicons need to be able to see mailbots, and also maybe have Cyborg death alerts get sent to all silicons.
  • New Cyborg parts? I love the screen head PR, but why not more types of limbs, chests, bits and bobs? Extendable arms, legs that can be retracted to allow them to get on the floor (fuck you plastic flaps), heads that can emergency eject, chests with a single inventory slot (store money, dolls, illegal goods or pipebombs.)
  • Rework Chemistry module. It's a lackluster module that nobody uses. Combine it with Medical and let them use regular ChemDispenser UI, or let them use regular ChemDispenser UI and give them more of a Research role. Toxins equipment (tanks? pressure crystals?), Artlab equipment (a shocker, a heater, a data tape?), Telescience equipment (camera helmet, camera, adventure equipment, GPS).
  • Add some Brobocop-related stuff. I don't want to give Cyborgs flashes, cuffs or guns, but Brobocop is too Brobo and not enough Cop. I'm sure there's SOMETHING we can do to make them more interesting to play. The most Brobocop mains I've seen just sit in Security to mark people for arrest since there's little else they can really do other than door stuff. A tool that instantly closes all doors in that room/summons a single Securitron/turns off all lights? Anything for self defense? Luminol spray, bloodtrak, the ability to robotically monologue? (Not like the det ever uses them) Medical have defibs which can drop someone for a second and make them drop their weapon, something like that would be nice.
  • Expand on Mining module. Let them upgrade their drill, or give them one that can EVENTUALLY break higher toughness rocks. An upgraded geological scanner that lets them examine rocks far away to see what ore it is? A mini mineral accumulator? Let them use the telescope console without standing next to it? Maybe give them some sort of ore radar? More stuff, they're rather barebones.
  • Engineering module love. Let their RCD work like a RCDD when it comes to airlocks. Current Cyborg RCD can only make vertical, maintenance airlocks with no access or name. Give them the RCDD features to pick a skin, name, make horizontal airlocks, but leave the access out so they need to involve the HoP. Also maybe make the Construction Worker module able to fabricate or buy via traders or merchants, or give the planners to Engiborgs (I'd prefer the former).
  • Syndicate Cyborg Expansion. Either make it a unique module with some devious tools, or make it modify all normal modules. Make their laws a bit more fun, maybe give Nukies a very fun unique Cyborg. Anything really, there's a lot of potential here.
  • Security Cyborg take two. I know, a lot of people despise the idea, but why not have a NT Cyborg that is latejoin only, HoS whitelist, instantly explodes if you shoot a human? Or give the HoS a special Cyborg module that they can give to a Cyborg that gives them, I dunno, a flyswatter and ectogun equivalent? I don't really want them to have guns, flashes or cuffs, but I don't see why NT wouldn't have some sort of Security model. I do feel like Brobocop is the better way to go, but it needs a hefty expansion still I think.


EDIT: 
RE: Brobocop, maybe a pepper spray? Like a hypospray that sprays a bit of capsaicin into people's eyes? Maybe a charger for SecOff's baton/taser, swipe ID and put it inside the Cyborg to charge it? Donut dispenser?
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#12
(12-25-2020, 11:31 AM)UrsulaMejor Wrote:
Quote: and rather than actually look into this issue and balance it, the admins have taken the stance of "no just don't fucking touch those stinky bots".

What a wonderful Christmas present; to not only diminish the team's existing cyborg rework ideas and efforts, but also turn around and make up a team stance on the matter that doesn't exist and is the exact opposite of the team's expressed opinions.

This certainly endears me to your suggestions.

i'm just speaking from what i've personally seen and experienced, but i'll remove that bit from the original post, sorry
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#13
(12-25-2020, 05:10 AM)Mopcat Wrote: 1. default to standard chem ui. the borg chem ui is atrocious and nobody likes it. seriously. how this is still in the game is beyond me. borgs can already use the standard chem ui with a few extra steps and nobody seems to have a problem with it, so... why not just default to that?

I like the borg chem ui. It is a fresh experience to have to work around the limitations by writing down a second guide for yourself how to prepare batches of chems.
Feel free to upgrade the visuals of that clumsy chem-ui but I feel like the main aspect of having a different experience of mixing chems is important to borgs.

In general I feel like borgs are in a pretty good place. They are better and worse than humans in several different aspects and in the sense of being able to use tools.
Still - I think they are in a pretty good place.

Also whatever exploit you are talking about to abuse some bug to access the standard chem ui as a borg should be fixed IMO. Never heard of that being a thing. Ô_o

- - -

Too lazy to write an opinion piece on every part of your ideas now but in general I only agree with one of yours.
Enhance syndicate borgs. Yeah - I can get behind that, but still borgs can be pretty powerful as is. I would rather see some fancy dandy utility tools and not straight-up guns and shit.
A borg picking up three plasma tanks lighting them in a hallway is D E V A S T A T I N G !

Another aspect - yeah - no. Security is for humans to keep and not for borgs.
I dislike the trend to essentially turn the chem-borg into a human for chemistry and the party-borg into a security-human.
Borgs and humans work differently and cater to different styles to play...but when one plays borg all the time and wishes to turn them more into humans by bridging those differences closer together...than I can only recommend for that person to switch from playing borgs to be playing human.

Argh - another thing I wanted to mention. If you care about making various modules incompatible with one another,...
Well - you better figure out how to convey that information which module works with what other modules to ANY player without the use of spreadsheets. Still - I do not think module mixing is that big of a problem.

Generally borgs can still be easily killed by anyone. Enough taser-shots, enough flashes and enough pulse-rifles will always do the job.
Oh - and if my memory serves me correct QM can also order EMP grenades and sec got some in the armory too.
There are a lot of ways to go about killing a borg - like - using the termination console near the AI?
Borgs are by far not unkillable.
Good like that.
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#14
i'd definitely appreciate the borg chem ui being overhauled. Not to the standard for a variety of balance reasons, but at the very least it could be touched up visually.

If someone was particularly creative and inspired to work on it, they could probably find a way to make the balance more mechanically engaging than it just being annoying to work with. Maybe something like wait times, but you can pre-set moves into a queue? There could be consequences if you miss a step while laying out your orders and look away while youre waiting...


I'm very against security borgs, and already don't really like the apparent power creep going on with turning the brobocop into a more capable part of security as opposed to a gimmick that, incidentally, can serve as an extra set of eyes for sec. I could maybe see the donut dispenser mentioned as a fitting addition, but I really don't like the idea of the bot getting restraints, pepper spray, or anything else approximating sec gear.
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#15
(12-25-2020, 03:49 PM)cyberTripping Wrote: i'd definitely appreciate the borg chem ui being overhauled. Not to the standard for a variety of balance reasons

Kind of curious what the balance reasons here are. What's the problem with making Cyborgs less of a pain to use if you want to make some medicine or something? I wouldn't be against their own fancy UI, but the simplest and least dev intensive solution is to just give them the normal UI, and I don't really see any issues with that. Will it be easier for Cyborgs to make hellmixes? Sure, but I don't think that's much of a reason to make UI horrible.

(12-25-2020, 03:49 PM)cyberTripping Wrote: I'm very against security borgs, and already don't really like the apparent power creep going on with turning the brobocop into a more capable part of security as opposed to a gimmick that, incidentally, can serve as an extra set of eyes for sec. I could maybe see the donut dispenser mentioned as a fitting addition, but I really don't like the idea of the bot getting restraints, pepper spray, or anything else approximating sec gear.
(12-25-2020, 03:25 PM)GORE Wrote: Another aspect - yeah - no. Security is for humans to keep and not for borgs.
I dislike the trend to essentially turn the chem-borg into a human for chemistry and the party-borg into a security-human.
Borgs and humans work differently and cater to different styles to play...but when one plays borg all the time and wishes to turn them more into humans by bridging those differences closer together...than I can only recommend for that person to switch from playing borgs to be playing human.


See, I'm not really trying to suggest we make Brobocops into Security Cyborgs or powercreep them, but they need to be more engaging currently for if a player wants to play as a Security Support. I'm just spit balling ideas in my earlier post, but as of right now Brobocop is more or less a vending machine with a funny tube that can close and bolt doors. I'd prefer to steer it away from door bolting and more towards supporting Security. Giving them a charger, a donut dispenser, MAYBE something very very minor like the multitool spark special attack so they can feel useful in some way. 

I really don't like the idea of powerful Brobocop that can pretend to be Security either, but I want it to be engaging for players to support Security as one, as I think it's a great way for people to learn Security without the responsibility of being an Officer. Giving them more fun and interesting tools will hopefully steer them away from just bolting doors and being a nuisance, as it's currently the only thing they can really do. Maybe a ticket gun? Load a ticket into it, fire it onto a player to have it stuck to their back so everyone can laugh at the person for their crime? Some more Security Officer oriented support things, maybe those fancy GPS locators so Security Officers can implant themselves with Tracking Implants and the Cyborg can locate them easily? There's a lot of potential and I just want it explored is all.

Though I still think changing Chemistry module to a Research module with toxins, telescience, artlab and chemistry equipment is the way to go.
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