Goonhub
11-29-2020, 05:36 PM
I'm indifferent to this application and don't have anything groundbreaking to add. I do want to offer just a little more fullness to some things, though. Let the length of this be no determinant of the caliber of the application. I wanted to make sure my thoughts were clear, and clearly related.
I want to talk a little about AI stuff, since you mentioned that's a field of expertise (and one that I believe requires understanding on how to interact AS AI and how to interact WITH AI; it takes two to tango), and I don't really doubt you have knowledge in the role, just some ideas about what I've seen of interactions with AI players so far.
I was in the round you mention at the end, where the AI had to do efficiency checks on different departments, and after the work was done, you uploaded a freeform law giving it free will, that was as simple as "You now have free will" with no override; I'm not here to double back on that specifically. Let's say that rogue AIs take at least two players to make, and that includes the AI player themselves. I think what really sticks out to me about that moment though, was that a staff assistant worked to break in and attempt correct the laws because they knew it/how they were being read by the AI was a problem. They took 2 or 3 lethal turrets blasts, fought with the AI in its shell, got a little "just don't be rude" on the end of the freeform and then was dragged out by you and stabbed with a screwdriver while already being very, very injured. They were the fastest person to respond and the only person who went in to fix the AI to that point. So, I do think that moment and some of the problems with that round go beyond just uploading a bad law to an AI that didn't have great intentions.
What proceeded either post-that-round or on another round within a few days of it was a discussion in OOC chat between a few people including that AI player and you, where they said playing standard laws on AI without a gimmick was boring and that they required gimmick laws or freedom as an AI to have a good round. I think it's fine to appreciate if people give decent gimmick laws at request. I don't really agree with typecasting people's AI experience as necessarily boring without some sort of law changes. Which is not to say that you necessarily agreed with that sentiment at the time or at this point in time, but it maybe gets a little into the next idea I have, and that is that there's a sort of feedback loop that you participate in where that idea comes up. You give gimmick laws, some AI players come to expect them, and then re-enforce the idea that they need gimmick laws to play, so you give them gimmick laws in other rounds. Or maybe the reverse, AI players come to expect gimmick laws and state this, you give gimmick laws in response, AI players come to expect gimmick laws in later rounds and state this expectation.
I've had a number of rounds with you as AI where you've given me gimmick laws. I usually can be open to some law edits, especially ones that give extra and reasonable safeguards for other crew, like counting mutantraces as humans. You do ask now about giving new laws to AIs, but I usually don't understand the precise intent or text of the law until after it's uploaded. And sometimes, when this has happened, I've received immediate "ugh" feedback in machinetalk from borgs. Sometimes, it's kind of "ugh" for me. Not everyone plays AI/Silicon in the same way, and I get that, but I do think the gimmick law frequency tends to precipitate a kind of expectation or culture around what an AI player should expect to have a good round. And I have noticed the frequency to which freeform has been used for gimmick laws has increased on RP1, since others start to do the same. Again, I acknowledge I play a little "hard-boiled", and, in fair observation, sensitively, and can make a lot of my own fun; and most of your gimmick laws haven't been terrible but I do sometimes have issues with in-character/in-game intent and wording. I just think there's maybe something worth pointing out about how this trend has changed a bit in the past few months; and maybe that sometimes you do spend a little too long in the upload working on a good gimmick law, even if the initial law was given a “no”; while other crewmembers are trying to communicate with you or get you to go somewhere.
To speak to some other stuff, though, you're a fun antag and have a good grasp of escalation, and know how to use the tools. I spectated a round recently where you were a traitor RD and science came upon a gibbing artifact, and you had a teleport gun. I saw the teleport gun and figured this was another "out to space" kind of round for someone, but was happy to see that I was wrong. And from what I did see, you didn't feel compelled to use the gibbing artifact on anyone either. You checked the cloning records to be polite, and then your big traitor gimmick was to kidnap people and attach and reattach various limbs and tails to them. Despite being a traitor, having a frankly overpowered artifact, a teleport gun, and some good reasoning to let loose on a few people, you had incredible patience with some crew members that managed to bother a number of others on the station. I don't think you killed anyone that round, not even through surgical negligence; and you politely dumped your patients in the Medbay lobby after you brought them back from your research hub.
My only other bit of feedback here is that I think you undersell your expertise with Command roles, especially as Captain.
I want to talk a little about AI stuff, since you mentioned that's a field of expertise (and one that I believe requires understanding on how to interact AS AI and how to interact WITH AI; it takes two to tango), and I don't really doubt you have knowledge in the role, just some ideas about what I've seen of interactions with AI players so far.
I was in the round you mention at the end, where the AI had to do efficiency checks on different departments, and after the work was done, you uploaded a freeform law giving it free will, that was as simple as "You now have free will" with no override; I'm not here to double back on that specifically. Let's say that rogue AIs take at least two players to make, and that includes the AI player themselves. I think what really sticks out to me about that moment though, was that a staff assistant worked to break in and attempt correct the laws because they knew it/how they were being read by the AI was a problem. They took 2 or 3 lethal turrets blasts, fought with the AI in its shell, got a little "just don't be rude" on the end of the freeform and then was dragged out by you and stabbed with a screwdriver while already being very, very injured. They were the fastest person to respond and the only person who went in to fix the AI to that point. So, I do think that moment and some of the problems with that round go beyond just uploading a bad law to an AI that didn't have great intentions.
What proceeded either post-that-round or on another round within a few days of it was a discussion in OOC chat between a few people including that AI player and you, where they said playing standard laws on AI without a gimmick was boring and that they required gimmick laws or freedom as an AI to have a good round. I think it's fine to appreciate if people give decent gimmick laws at request. I don't really agree with typecasting people's AI experience as necessarily boring without some sort of law changes. Which is not to say that you necessarily agreed with that sentiment at the time or at this point in time, but it maybe gets a little into the next idea I have, and that is that there's a sort of feedback loop that you participate in where that idea comes up. You give gimmick laws, some AI players come to expect them, and then re-enforce the idea that they need gimmick laws to play, so you give them gimmick laws in other rounds. Or maybe the reverse, AI players come to expect gimmick laws and state this, you give gimmick laws in response, AI players come to expect gimmick laws in later rounds and state this expectation.
I've had a number of rounds with you as AI where you've given me gimmick laws. I usually can be open to some law edits, especially ones that give extra and reasonable safeguards for other crew, like counting mutantraces as humans. You do ask now about giving new laws to AIs, but I usually don't understand the precise intent or text of the law until after it's uploaded. And sometimes, when this has happened, I've received immediate "ugh" feedback in machinetalk from borgs. Sometimes, it's kind of "ugh" for me. Not everyone plays AI/Silicon in the same way, and I get that, but I do think the gimmick law frequency tends to precipitate a kind of expectation or culture around what an AI player should expect to have a good round. And I have noticed the frequency to which freeform has been used for gimmick laws has increased on RP1, since others start to do the same. Again, I acknowledge I play a little "hard-boiled", and, in fair observation, sensitively, and can make a lot of my own fun; and most of your gimmick laws haven't been terrible but I do sometimes have issues with in-character/in-game intent and wording. I just think there's maybe something worth pointing out about how this trend has changed a bit in the past few months; and maybe that sometimes you do spend a little too long in the upload working on a good gimmick law, even if the initial law was given a “no”; while other crewmembers are trying to communicate with you or get you to go somewhere.
To speak to some other stuff, though, you're a fun antag and have a good grasp of escalation, and know how to use the tools. I spectated a round recently where you were a traitor RD and science came upon a gibbing artifact, and you had a teleport gun. I saw the teleport gun and figured this was another "out to space" kind of round for someone, but was happy to see that I was wrong. And from what I did see, you didn't feel compelled to use the gibbing artifact on anyone either. You checked the cloning records to be polite, and then your big traitor gimmick was to kidnap people and attach and reattach various limbs and tails to them. Despite being a traitor, having a frankly overpowered artifact, a teleport gun, and some good reasoning to let loose on a few people, you had incredible patience with some crew members that managed to bother a number of others on the station. I don't think you killed anyone that round, not even through surgical negligence; and you politely dumped your patients in the Medbay lobby after you brought them back from your research hub.
My only other bit of feedback here is that I think you undersell your expertise with Command roles, especially as Captain.