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Nerf packets for fucks sakes.
#1
I can't be arsed to write a full bodied essay about why this should be done, its obvious as it is and the expirences I've had as HoS just reinforce it.

The amount of power that packets give are not absolutely not balanced to be hard or difficult to get. Almost every single grey tider I've arrested as HoS had some sort of packet-related device, PDA, hand held case, etc, that would consistenally be used to break into the captains quarters, security, sec lockers, or out of the brig.

This shit is not okay.
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#2
(09-30-2020, 10:33 AM)Carbadox Wrote: I can't be arsed to write a full bodied essay about why this should be done, its obvious as it is and the expirences I've had as HoS just reinforce it.

The amount of power that packets give are not absolutely not balanced to be hard or difficult to get. Almost every single grey tider I've arrested as HoS had some sort of packet-related device, PDA, hand held case, etc, that would consistenally be used to break into the captains quarters, security, sec lockers, or out of the brig.

This shit is not okay.

Seconded, clock 180s were nerfed from Qm access because of packet abuse, rather then adressing the actual problem (especially since cargo still has access to phasers). 

The reason why there are so many gray tiders doing this is because someone literally has made a step by step tutorial on how to do this. This tutorial will show up in any youtube search that includes "goonstation" and "guide". It has over 1000 views, given the playerbase of goonstation and SS13 that means alot of players who would have no clue otherwise are now aware of this. Id consider this almost a leak on part with a bunch of secret chems being leaked. There are entire rounds where the first thing my fellow QMS did was basically crack into a bunch of crates and arm the hell out of cargo, often to the point where we are better armed then security, especially if there isnt a HOS around to give proper guns to Sec. 

The  packet tutorial video in question.
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#3
I think lockers should definitely be harder to hack into. Instead of the heads netpass, make cracking lockers require the SECURITY netpass. Maybe make the armory doors require the security netpass, too. Have the armory unlock machine send out a packet with the security netpass when it activates, and that along with the captain's disk will give two methods of acquiring it, both pretty difficult.

For doors, is it really that much more of an issue than wire hacking? The tools you need to packet hack doors are much less widely available than the tools for wire hacking. If someone's being a shitter and doing a bunch of B&Es, just confiscate their PDA cart or device frame.
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#4
I love packet stuff. It's mind-blowing that something like this is in the game and really gives players lots of creativity. However, people do just use it for the easy stuff. The annoying thing is all of this stuff has been on the wiki for ages, it's only because it went onto YouTube.

Hacking is just as easy as packet stuff so I would put forward an idea of making the packet stuff just harder to get started. Mainly something like make all the head accessible doors require the secret code. Then either make the secret code encrypted with the decryptor on some Debris Field shuttle filled with nasties. Or have the secret code not be in the PRman thing anymore and have it be visible a short range from the opened door. So that some social engineering needs to be done where the person has to be or build something near a door to capture the code first.
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#5
I always liked packets as it was a fun niche alternative method of minor crimery

But now, when there are youtube tutorials on packets and every assistant/mechanic keeps abusing them, it's getting really tiring and annoying, so, I'll have to agree with that one. I saw it coming
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#6
One REALLY good way that I've seen packets be used to make them less abuseable is the newer Detomatrix packets. Before, it used to be a file that, when associated with ANY text message, set off the PDA. This didn't used to be much of a problem since catching wireless files was either extremely difficult or just straight up impossible. However, the addition of the File MechComp component made this both possible and relatively simple. So, as you can imagine, people just sent a detomatrix missile to someone, snatched the file, then made systems to blow up every PDA on the station.

This is VERY strong, but the bad part seemed to have come from how simple and abuseable it was. Now, there's a new system:

There is now a Syndicate Netpass which is ONLY used for Detomatrixes. Any valid text message needs to have the *correct* netpass in its correct key field to detonate a PDA, but this time no file is present. You'd think that this would be worse, since now you can just sniff for the pass, but here's where it gets good! Here's what a typical sniffed packet from a MISSILE might look like:
[38:07:4]:ERR_12939_CORRUPT_PACKET:*****n*********s*a*** **ss*******M; **t**********9****O********** *****r*******h* S***e ****; *****r*0****1a** *d*******=*2*5*****
This is most likely going to be useless on its own. If you're clever (and lucky) you can figure out the sender just based on this message alone, as there's a combination of '1a' in the third to last and second to last digits where the sender ID would be, allowing you to trace them. Or, you sniff out a bunch of these and combine them all to get a more complete one!

Stuff similar to this, requiring you to sniff out multiple packets and/or do some clever math and decoding, could be a great solution. This would make it challenging enough by requiring some actual know-how and somewhat dynamic problem solving, rather than basic instruction following. The Detomatrix thing is a bit simple, however, and I'd like to see more interesting ways of making things more obfuscated and secure.


On a semi-related note, the AI should be THE role that can crack these things; secure communications and data processing and the ability to sniff a LOT of packets.
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#7
Yeah seems to me the best way to handle it is just introduce some more complications that require on the spot thinking for solving. The more secure we want something, the more elements that prevent simply following steps
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#8
As a, dare I say Omega nerd, Packets definitely need a nerf, As of right now, you need a Dwaine terminal, A cartridge that can be bought from vending machines, and a id, to open every single locker, door, and crate, remotely. The three main things i can think of to nerf packets are

1:Make it harder to get the software required for packets, Aka packet senders and packet sniffers/ ping tool, Say, they spawn in a cartidge in the RDS office(RD is actually supposed to be head Dwaine kinda nerd), or some other actually hard place to get them from

2: Encryption, As with most IRL network security, things are encrypted, via  DES, RC2, or RC4, Along with a Traffic key, So basically, SS13afy those encryption methods, and apply them to packets, Which would be classified as either Secure(Encrypted) Or Unsecure(Unencrypted)

3: Make it so that packets have to go through a main processing mainframe first, Where they are automatically processed to be valid via a key. If the key is correct, allow it through, If it isn't, block the packet, Normally this would be done automatically, but with the right access, you could set it to be manual, so x person viewing the packets reads them manually and chooses to allow or disallow

Ideally, Packets should be a advanced way to get into places, So, say your a traitor attempting to get into armory, but you cant afford a emag and don't know how to crack crates/lockers, You should mindslave a packet nerd, then, To do their thing and crack open lockers, They should have to go into tech storage to have the tools to crack those crates, Which should only be doable via  a dwaine terminal, on the other end, You the traitor have to break into armory, gather some info for your mindslave, Send it back via some form, and wait
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#9
Just make it so you have to hack the vending machine for ONE(1) cartridge. That way there will only be like what 3 at most on station?
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#10
ABSOLUTELY YES PLEASE

Packets are incredibly fucking powerful, especially in comparison to the alternative ways of completing a task without packets, if possible.

For example with crate/locker cracking, someone can packets all of the crates and lockers on station open relatively simply, while otherwise you would need the correct access, an EMAG, or an explosive with a blast power closely equivalent to a BP pipe bomb or higher to open them.

I couldn't care if they used it for door hacking as long as they couldn't do dumb shit with it beyond what door hacking can, like remotely open/close/bolt/electrify/etc. all the doors on station en masse.

Finally something nobody here has mentioned... packet nerdery allows someone to remotely shutdown the ENTIRE station at once, recall the shuttle at will, and exploit just about any computer, technical, or mechanical system in the game, without being found out or on station. All via packet sniffing and the use of a wireless laptop. I know for a fact this is possible because I have seen it done and in action by one very kind and very knowledgeable mechnerd, going by the IC name of Wilbur Wright, a few years ago. He told me himself his routine and how he was able to do this, and to be quite honest it was something that could be done quite quickly. This of all things is my biggest gripe, is the overall ability of packets to completely shutdown or exploit an entire system with relative ease, and all remotely without being traced.
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#11
(09-30-2020, 08:08 PM)KikiMofo Wrote: Just make it so you have to hack the vending machine for ONE(1) cartridge. That way there will only be like what 3 at most on station?
That just puts more power in the hands of QM, as they can order the restock vends. Scarcity of hardware isn't a great solution.

(09-30-2020, 11:20 AM)arcticmog Wrote: ... means alot of players who would have no clue otherwise are now aware of this. Id consider this almost a leak on part with a bunch of secret chems being leaked. ...

The basic operation of packets isn't and shouldn't be a secret. Someone making a step-by-step guide about the application of an obtuse mechanic isn't a leak, it's education. Sure, be mad that the system is being used soo often to the extent of being an issue, but I hold no ill-will to the video maker.
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#12
I'm a relatively new player, so I'm sure my voice doesn't carry much weight, but I've really been enjoying the packet system and I think it's something that makes goonstation really special. I agree the system could be tweaked, but I would be disheartened if it was made too un-fun.

When I started I was immediately drawn to the computer systems as it appealed to my IRL hobbies, and the whole "hacking" mechanic drew me in to learn more. I figured out my packetnerdery from Zamujasa's pages on wiki and playing around in tech storage, and ended up being able to remote control my own telesci pad pretty reliably, make mechcomp monstrosities and figured out the secrets of APCs and laptops, which was a huge amount of fun (though I've been careful not to use it for things that would be un-fun for other people, as a pen-and-paper roleplay guy I generally think it's more about everyone's fun than just my own). Some may have seen my character Frederick Blumble doing dumb stuff with telesci on the RP servers, in the odd times I can get away from the kids to play.

I can see exactly where the exploits are, having identified them myself and avoided using them. It's a bit disappointing to see some hard-won methods getting out on a youtube tutorial, so shortly after I learned them, but they certainly weren't secrets, and were only ever the basics.

I was surprised at a few things in my journey that didn't make much sense - why it was so easy to get superuser access, why netpass_heads was just hidden in a random guardbuddy command, and why doors didn't seem to care about the player authorisation in packets, but did so in normal operation.

It seems the doors and lockers have become the main point of contention. But I should mention that su access is required for telescience nerdery as well, and to take a broad-brush approach and limit that to heads and AI for me would be a shame. There's not actually much you can do with su access as it is, but it unlocks the netpass_heads, which mainly only used for lockers. There's already crackable safes, the armory is crackable, everything is crackable in some way, that's part of the fun of goonstation.

It should be noted that other Z-level areas also have lockers - that's primarily the ones I go and crack because I don't want to steal a player's stuff. In-fact, packets seems to be an intended tool to use for some adventure zones. 

It makes sense for hacking to be confined more to mechanics, they already have the gloves and tools. And just like people can steal gloves, anyone can steal /find some mechcomp bits.

It looks like the computer bits of the codebase are being worked on anyway, so it's probably not desirable to mess around with SU and the netpass_heads locations. I think suitable code changes in doors and lockers are best.

So here are my proposals:

Doors / locker opening packets should need the departmental numeric acc_code key/value pair, like SU access does. This reduces the power of device frames to auto-open everything so fast.

Doors / lockers should only accept opening packets sent from the mainframe like APCs, this just makes sense contextually as they can be AI controlled. This removes the ability for PDAs alone to open them as they cannot spoof sender by default, so now you need mechcomp / computers too.


Suddenly packet hacking now is more difficult, but still not gated to heads / AI. No more instant all-access device frames because of the need to pick the right acc_code for the area. No more basic PDA door opening without setting up some mechcomp. And people need to learn all the numeric acc_codes now.

To address traceability:


Fight fire with fire, the untraceability of potential criminals can be mitigated using DWAINE and the mainframe radio. With SU access you can mkdir /mnt/radio/1411 and /mnt/radio/1431, and then use grep -sr open /mnt/radio/1411 or grep -sr unlock /mnt/radio/1431 to identify suspicious logs, then use cat to read the sender address. Any AI could set this up at roundstart - perhaps it could be put on the wiki? I'm not sure if anything else really sends out wireless packets to open doors and lockers other than criminals.

I don't want to just recommend changes without offering to do it myself though, I just don't know how to go about getting access to the codebase or the wiki, nor if I'd be welcome. These were just my thoughts for a simple solution that didn't go too far.
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#13
I have no dog in this fight, but I will point out that there was a recent enough PR by Pali6 that was unfortunately closed due to the issues with implementation. It does appear to tackle this issue by having an internal verification counter, and no doubt this could potentially be extended to lockers.

https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/1947

I would hope this could be revisited.

FYI - don't think someone sharing a YT video explaining the processes is a bad thing. Getting people more interesting in turbo nerd stuff without relying on reading through the wiki or for someone else hand holding you is a good.

If anything, this just highlights that this stuff was unbalanced to begin with, in that the easiest processes (opening doors/lockers) are also the ones with the biggest gains.
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#14
(10-01-2020, 06:05 AM)Sundance Wrote: If anything, this just highlights that this stuff was unbalanced to begin with, in that the easiest processes (opening doors/lockers) are also the ones with the biggest gains.

Agreed.

A step in the right direction would be to make the headpass a lot more difficult to acquire.
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#15
https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/2335

A change for lockers.
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