Goonhub
09-28-2020, 09:31 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2020, 09:50 AM by Mouse. Edited 1 time in total.)
I'm gonna run some numbers because I have the feeling that the LMG isn't nearly as powerful as Drago thinks it is. (the big problem IMX is the massive lagspike from message spam from getting shot with one while wearing armor)
LMG deals 12 damage per bullet, fires 8 bullets per volley, has 100 ammo capacity and two belts, for a total of 300 bullets. This translates to, with perfect accuracy and the target having no armor, 96 damage per volley, 12 volleys per full belt (with four shots left over - using all of your ammo will give you another volley and have four shots unused but will require a minimum of four reloads [100,100,100 -fire1-> 4,100,100 -reload1-> 100,4,100 -fire2->4,4,100 -reload2->8,0,100-reload3-> 100,0,8 -fire3-> 4,0,8 -reload4-> 12,0,0 -fire4-> 4,0,0], 1152 damage per full belt, and 3352 damage for all your ammo.
Now, there's a second delay between all combat clicks - I don't know if that starts counting when the volley starts firing or when the volley ends - in either case that means it takes a minimum of 12 seconds to use a full belt, in the latter it means the minimum is significantly higher, so one belt gives you, assuming a perfect scenario, 96 dps. You have 37 volleys, so that's 37 seconds, plus 4 seconds for 4 reloads, for a total of 41 seconds minimum to use all your ammo.
This gives us the following results:
LMG shot damage - 96
LMG full belt damage - 1152
LMG full loadout damage - 3552
LMG dps (shot) - 96
LMG dps (belt) - 96
LMG dps (loadout) - ~86.6
Now, my personal experience seems to suggest that the second delay starts counting when the volley finishes firing. For any single-shot gun this is negligible, for the LMG that's around another second. If this is, in fact, how it works, then it could potentially be 23 seconds to use up a belt instead of 12, and 74 seconds to use all your ammo. That would put the best-case dps values at:
LMG dps (shot) - 96
LMG dps (belt) - ~50.1
LMG dps (loadout) - 48
First set is very good. Second set is a pretty significant downgrade. Incidentally, I initially misremembered nukies as getting three spare belts, which would let them use all their ammo at the cost of two additional reloads. I caught it before posting but it's possible I forgot to fix some of the numbers, so if anything's wrong it's probably here. I may also have fucked up with how long it would take to spend all your ammo here. Now let's look at some other weapons.
CPA Predator Mk. II stats - 60 damage per shot, 7 ammo, two spare speedloaders (21 ammo total), and you can use all the ammo at once so you only need two reloads, so 23 seconds to spend it all.
Predator shot damage - 60
Predator full speedloader damage - 420
Predator full loadout damage - 1260
Predator dps (shot) - 60
Predator dps (speedloader) - 60
Predator dps (loadout) - ~54.8
M1992 stats - 25 damage a shot, 15 shots a magazine, 3 spare magazines (60 ammo overall), three reloads, total firing time 63 seconds.
M1992 shot damage - 25
M1992 full magazine damage - 375
M1992 full loadout damage - 1500
M1992 dps (shot) - 25
M1992 dps (magazine) - 25
M1992 dps (loadout) - ~23.8
I did the sidearms first because I misremembered how much damage the LMG did at first and it ended up being solidly beat by the Predator until I fixed it. Let's look at the main weapons.
M19A4 - 30 damage (single shot), 18 damage (burst X3), 30 ammo, 5 spare magazines (180 ammo in total), five reloads. 30 seconds to empty a magazine on single shot, 10 seconds to empty a magazine on burst (best case), 13.75 seconds to empty a magazine on burst (worst-case, assuming that the bullets on burst come out at the same rate as the value I guesstimated for the LMG), 185 seconds to use all the ammo on single shot, 65 seconds to use all ammo on burst (best-case), ~87.5 seconds to use all ammo on burst (worst-case)
M19A4 shot damage (semi/burst) - 30/54
M19A4 full magazine damage (semi/burst) - 900/540
M19A4 full loadout damage (semi/burst) - 5400/3240
M19A4 shot dps (semi/burst (bestcase)/burst (worstcase)) - 30/54/54
M19A4 magazine dps (semi/burst (best)/burst(worst)) - 30/54/~39.3
M19A4 loadout dps (semi/burst (best)/burst (worst)) - ~29.2/~49.8/~37
S90A1 sniper rifle - 70 damage, 4 shots per magazine, 5 spare magazines (24 shots total), 5 reloads, 29 seconds to use all ammo.
S90A1 shot damage - 70
S90A1 full magazine damage - 280
S90A1 full loadout damage - 1680
S90A1 dps (shot) - 70
S90A1 dps (magazine) - 70
S90A1 dps (loadout) - ~57.9
SPES-12 shotgun - 70 damage, 8 shells per ammo box, 5 spare boxes (48 shells total), 5 reloads, 53 seconds to use all ammo.
SPES-12 shot damage - 70
SPES-12 full box damage - 560
SPES-12 full loadout damage - 3360
SPES-12 dps (shot) - 70
SPES-12 dps (box) - 70
SPES-12 dps (loadout) - ~63.4
In summary: Best case scenario, the LMG is the best weapon at doing damage quickly, although if the click delay works how it has seemed to work for me it becomes much, much worse at it, being beaten by the Predator, the SPES, and the goddamn sniper rifle.
Best-case scenario, the most damage overall goes to the assault rifle on semi. After that it's the LMG, shotgun, and assault rifle on burst fire. The sniper rifle, in comparison, barely manages to dish out more damage in total than the damn sidearms.
Of course, this again is assuming no armor and perfect accuracy. IIRC the sniper rifle and the shotgun also have variable damage depending on range, but I don't know how that works so I can't run the numbers there.
why is the sniper rifle one of the best DPS options that makes no sense whatsoever
As for the particular suggestions in the PR, separated out to another post because holy hell that one was tl;dr incarnate: guess the forum won't let me do that
The assault rifle is, by the numbers, one of the best nukie weapons around. I'm not convinced it needs a buff, at all.
The grenade launcher is stupidly overpowered but since I don't know how explosions actually deal damage I can't really say how much your change helps.
I didn't run the numbers on the SPES-6, but base 30 damage with 8 shots fully loaded and 48 shots in total is a hell of a nerf, and would probably put that in sidearm territory damage-wise. It's about a 57% decrease in damage. As good as the SPES-12 is, that's an enormous nerf.
The LMG already runs out of ammo ridiculously fast, although enabling full auto might actually let you use all the ammunition instead of it forever having four rounds it can't fire. If we're gonna move the LMG to true full auto I'd rather see something like the firebrand's new back item for it. You store your ammo on your back and don't need to reload, but you can't fire the LMG unless you're wearing the back item. It is, after all, belt-fed. Or give the heavy a pouch for their ammo belts because Christ inventory management as a heavy is hell.
LMG deals 12 damage per bullet, fires 8 bullets per volley, has 100 ammo capacity and two belts, for a total of 300 bullets. This translates to, with perfect accuracy and the target having no armor, 96 damage per volley, 12 volleys per full belt (with four shots left over - using all of your ammo will give you another volley and have four shots unused but will require a minimum of four reloads [100,100,100 -fire1-> 4,100,100 -reload1-> 100,4,100 -fire2->4,4,100 -reload2->8,0,100-reload3-> 100,0,8 -fire3-> 4,0,8 -reload4-> 12,0,0 -fire4-> 4,0,0], 1152 damage per full belt, and 3352 damage for all your ammo.
Now, there's a second delay between all combat clicks - I don't know if that starts counting when the volley starts firing or when the volley ends - in either case that means it takes a minimum of 12 seconds to use a full belt, in the latter it means the minimum is significantly higher, so one belt gives you, assuming a perfect scenario, 96 dps. You have 37 volleys, so that's 37 seconds, plus 4 seconds for 4 reloads, for a total of 41 seconds minimum to use all your ammo.
This gives us the following results:
LMG shot damage - 96
LMG full belt damage - 1152
LMG full loadout damage - 3552
LMG dps (shot) - 96
LMG dps (belt) - 96
LMG dps (loadout) - ~86.6
Now, my personal experience seems to suggest that the second delay starts counting when the volley finishes firing. For any single-shot gun this is negligible, for the LMG that's around another second. If this is, in fact, how it works, then it could potentially be 23 seconds to use up a belt instead of 12, and 74 seconds to use all your ammo. That would put the best-case dps values at:
LMG dps (shot) - 96
LMG dps (belt) - ~50.1
LMG dps (loadout) - 48
First set is very good. Second set is a pretty significant downgrade. Incidentally, I initially misremembered nukies as getting three spare belts, which would let them use all their ammo at the cost of two additional reloads. I caught it before posting but it's possible I forgot to fix some of the numbers, so if anything's wrong it's probably here. I may also have fucked up with how long it would take to spend all your ammo here. Now let's look at some other weapons.
CPA Predator Mk. II stats - 60 damage per shot, 7 ammo, two spare speedloaders (21 ammo total), and you can use all the ammo at once so you only need two reloads, so 23 seconds to spend it all.
Predator shot damage - 60
Predator full speedloader damage - 420
Predator full loadout damage - 1260
Predator dps (shot) - 60
Predator dps (speedloader) - 60
Predator dps (loadout) - ~54.8
M1992 stats - 25 damage a shot, 15 shots a magazine, 3 spare magazines (60 ammo overall), three reloads, total firing time 63 seconds.
M1992 shot damage - 25
M1992 full magazine damage - 375
M1992 full loadout damage - 1500
M1992 dps (shot) - 25
M1992 dps (magazine) - 25
M1992 dps (loadout) - ~23.8
I did the sidearms first because I misremembered how much damage the LMG did at first and it ended up being solidly beat by the Predator until I fixed it. Let's look at the main weapons.
M19A4 - 30 damage (single shot), 18 damage (burst X3), 30 ammo, 5 spare magazines (180 ammo in total), five reloads. 30 seconds to empty a magazine on single shot, 10 seconds to empty a magazine on burst (best case), 13.75 seconds to empty a magazine on burst (worst-case, assuming that the bullets on burst come out at the same rate as the value I guesstimated for the LMG), 185 seconds to use all the ammo on single shot, 65 seconds to use all ammo on burst (best-case), ~87.5 seconds to use all ammo on burst (worst-case)
M19A4 shot damage (semi/burst) - 30/54
M19A4 full magazine damage (semi/burst) - 900/540
M19A4 full loadout damage (semi/burst) - 5400/3240
M19A4 shot dps (semi/burst (bestcase)/burst (worstcase)) - 30/54/54
M19A4 magazine dps (semi/burst (best)/burst(worst)) - 30/54/~39.3
M19A4 loadout dps (semi/burst (best)/burst (worst)) - ~29.2/~49.8/~37
S90A1 sniper rifle - 70 damage, 4 shots per magazine, 5 spare magazines (24 shots total), 5 reloads, 29 seconds to use all ammo.
S90A1 shot damage - 70
S90A1 full magazine damage - 280
S90A1 full loadout damage - 1680
S90A1 dps (shot) - 70
S90A1 dps (magazine) - 70
S90A1 dps (loadout) - ~57.9
SPES-12 shotgun - 70 damage, 8 shells per ammo box, 5 spare boxes (48 shells total), 5 reloads, 53 seconds to use all ammo.
SPES-12 shot damage - 70
SPES-12 full box damage - 560
SPES-12 full loadout damage - 3360
SPES-12 dps (shot) - 70
SPES-12 dps (box) - 70
SPES-12 dps (loadout) - ~63.4
In summary: Best case scenario, the LMG is the best weapon at doing damage quickly, although if the click delay works how it has seemed to work for me it becomes much, much worse at it, being beaten by the Predator, the SPES, and the goddamn sniper rifle.
Best-case scenario, the most damage overall goes to the assault rifle on semi. After that it's the LMG, shotgun, and assault rifle on burst fire. The sniper rifle, in comparison, barely manages to dish out more damage in total than the damn sidearms.
Of course, this again is assuming no armor and perfect accuracy. IIRC the sniper rifle and the shotgun also have variable damage depending on range, but I don't know how that works so I can't run the numbers there.
why is the sniper rifle one of the best DPS options that makes no sense whatsoever
As for the particular suggestions in the PR, separated out to another post because holy hell that one was tl;dr incarnate: guess the forum won't let me do that
The assault rifle is, by the numbers, one of the best nukie weapons around. I'm not convinced it needs a buff, at all.
The grenade launcher is stupidly overpowered but since I don't know how explosions actually deal damage I can't really say how much your change helps.
I didn't run the numbers on the SPES-6, but base 30 damage with 8 shots fully loaded and 48 shots in total is a hell of a nerf, and would probably put that in sidearm territory damage-wise. It's about a 57% decrease in damage. As good as the SPES-12 is, that's an enormous nerf.
The LMG already runs out of ammo ridiculously fast, although enabling full auto might actually let you use all the ammunition instead of it forever having four rounds it can't fire. If we're gonna move the LMG to true full auto I'd rather see something like the firebrand's new back item for it. You store your ammo on your back and don't need to reload, but you can't fire the LMG unless you're wearing the back item. It is, after all, belt-fed. Or give the heavy a pouch for their ammo belts because Christ inventory management as a heavy is hell.