remove flashbang rushing

[FentonStraub]

for reasons that will be obvious after reading this post, i've highlighted some key words.

the ability to just run towards any opposing foe with two flashbangs (which, id like to remind you are also referred to as stun grenades) in your hand with earmuffs on is, simply put, way too much.

the fact that you can just hold two flashbangs and run towards any opposing foe for an INSTANT near max stun with no punishment just doesn't seem like it was intended in the combat. It's extremely one-sided and there is almost no way to defend yourself against it on certain maps that dont have a plentiful amount of earmuffs and sunglasses specifically.

The flashbang also don't disappear when they explode in your hands. (which also do NOT do anything to the person who is holding the flashbangs). The sprite will disappear from your hands, but you will still have to drop the now invisible flashbang to be able to use your hands again, which further supports that this use of the grenades being used in your hands covered by only electrically insulated padding is not intended whatsoever. 

A solution to these problems would be to:

• add a stun/large disorient punishment to the person holding the stun grenades
  
• make flashbang timers random between 3-4 seconds (3.2s, 3.5, 3.8 etc) to prevent them being thrown at the last milisecond.
  keeping a fixed time for the flashbangs would still allow people to throw them at the last milisecond without punishment, provided they have earmuffs on
• instead of a stun when it explodes in your hand it could give a large disorient and some damage. it is still a grenade after all.
  

[GORE]

They do not disappear while in your hand?

Infinite flashbangs?

Did I miss something?

[FentonStraub]

They do not disappear while in your hand?

oops, edited

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Blowing your hand off and causing brute damage fits perfectly into Goon physics.

[Carbadox]

+1 to Fireballs suggestion.

[FentonStraub]

carbadox's suggestion couldn't have been worded any better.
+100000

[Sov]

The flashbang also don't disappear when they explode in your hands. (which also do NOT do anything to the person who is holding the flashbangs). The sprite will disappear from your hands, but you will still have to drop the now invisible flashbang to be able to use your hands again

I am unable to replicate this

if someone could provide further details or a recording

[Sundance]

-1 to Fireballs suggestion.

The issue is not connected to in-hand usage, and we don't need to create another problem where fresh-of-the-boat secoffs arms are being blown off: that's like harm-batons on steroids. Flashbangs have a legitimate use when they're not being overplayed in this tactic.

Also, it fails to tackle the issue of pointblank grenade launchers, where you could load a grenade into it just shoot at an object you are beside.

From my understanding, flashbangs are Hootingium and Flashpowder in an internal chem grenade.

I would make a change so that the drop-off rate for Hootingium is adjusted. Around the epicentre of 3 tile radius, Hootingium will damage ears/stun WITH protection. 
Outside this epicentre, ear protection works as normal. 

This prevents the "rushing" tactic and requires you to actually chuck the grenade at a reasonable distance.

[FentonStraub]

The flashbang also don't disappear when they explode in your hands. (which also do NOT do anything to the person who is holding the flashbangs). The sprite will disappear from your hands, but you will still have to drop the now invisible flashbang to be able to use your hands again

I am unable to replicate this

if someone could provide further details or a recording

it must have been a rare occurance because i cant replicate it now but that's certainly happened to me before. (although ive only tested with only earplugs and no sunglasses so far)



Also, I don't think that having people's arms blow off would be a problem no matter how much they know about the game. Everybody that can use a keyboard knows that, ahem, stun ~~~~grenades~~~~, are typically pretty dangerous especially when held and exploded directly in your hand.
And think about it, you only have to know 3-4 buttons to arm and throw a flashbang. Not to mention the box comes with a warning!

I dont see newer security players arm stun grenades and then ask how do i throw it before they get stunned, because it's common sense to THROW a non-lethal explosive, or any explosive for that matter.
Even if an arm does get lost, it's a simple suture/staple right back on and they're right back to work.

[Frank_Stein]

-1 to Fireballs suggestion.

The issue is not connected to in-hand usage, and we don't need to create another problem where fresh-of-the-boat secoffs arms are being blown off: that's like harm-batons on steroids. Flashbangs have a legitimate use when they're not being overplayed in this tactic.

Also, it fails to tackle the issue of pointblank grenade launchers, where you could load a grenade into it just shoot at an object you are beside.

From my understanding, flashbangs are Hootingium and Flashpowder in an internal chem grenade.

I would make a change so that the drop-off rate for Hootingium is adjusted. Around the epicentre of 3 tile radius, Hootingium will damage ears/stun WITH protection. 
Outside this epicentre, ear protection works as normal. 

This prevents the "rushing" tactic and requires you to actually chuck the grenade at a reasonable distance.

Yeah I like this approach. It's less punishing to someone that does it inadvertently, and it actually would be neat to have variable effects based on distance from explosive.

[Sundance]

I'm bumping this thread.

I've done some testing on this just to see how bad it really is. 

It's pretty bad. Shades + earmuffs and then equip two flashbangs in your hand, activate, switch hand, activate and charge will just down all players in the area for heavy stun with very little hope of reposte due to the stacking.

It makes sonic grenades completely redundant. A box of those costs 2 TC for 6. Thing is that the sonic grenades have diminishing returns.. if your target is deaf then they're completely immune.
 
...Or you can get the above combo, take the box of 7 flashbangs, raid the 2-3 sec vendors for an extra ~10 grenades totalling ~17 grenades. For no TC.
Worse still due to the flashpowder, the diminishing return is negated unless you have shades.

It's not in any way balanced. 

I wrote a long post above about what should be done, but what I now think would be better is to:

A) Lower the ear protection that station earmuffs provide down to 50-60% (from the current 100%!!) If the protection works the way I think it does, it means that it will still reduce the stun damage from flashbangs instead of completely negating it. That way you can no longer rush. 

B) Allow sound damage still effect you even if your deaf, but at significantly reduced levels. This prevents someone from just making themselves deaf and then flashbang rushing.

[KikiMofo]

Having grenades go off in your hand should blow off your arm honestly.

[Frank_Stein]

A) Lower the ear protection that station earmuffs provide down to 50-60% (from the current 100%!!) If the protection works the way I think it does, it means that it will still reduce the stun damage from flashbangs instead of completely negating it. That way you can no longer rush. 

B) Allow sound damage still effect you even if your deaf, but at significantly reduced levels. This prevents someone from just making themselves deaf and then flashbang rushing.

Do that with the earmuffs, but also make it so you can still hear people with them on, albeit muffled.


Also, make being near an exploding flashbang a little more dangerous. At the very least have it cause burn damage or ignite a person on the same tile as it

[Katzen]

I think blowing your arms off would be too much for innocent players fumbling flashbangs but I think you would be able to use the same kind of logic to stun someone holding them despite the protection.

[KikiMofo]

I know people dont want the BUT IRL arguement but IRL if you are holding ANY kind of grenade in your hand when it goes off you are losing your hand. Even nonlethal grenades. In the game that would just mean having your arm blast off and having to pick it up and shuffle over to medbay to get it reattached. Its not that big of a downside. Just enough that they cant spam holding grenades because they dont have an arm anymore.