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SageAcrin Goon2,Forums
#1
Admin: SageAcrin

Server: First part was on Goon2, second part was on these Forums.
Date + Time: 5/19/20 unknown time for goon2 part, 5/20/20 12:55 AM for forums part
Synopsis: See thread https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916. The PM logs are the first part, the response to the user's post is the second part.
Regarding the first part, I do not believe Sage acted appropriately in dealing with the person who was PM'd, Moon Jesus. While they began with asking questions to get to the truth of the case, they said, in the middle of asking questions,
Quote:What thing makes it much more likely that you were joyriding to cause havoc instead? Coming clean here is much safer. Trust me.

Lying to admins is straight up in the rules as a thing you don't do.
I do not think it was appropriate to clearly accuse the affected with lying to them. In the case that they may be telling the truth, this easily reads as Sage suggesting they won't consider them being truthful to be possible. Since the accusations of lying were part of the same message asking them to clarify further, it was impossible for them to further explain themselves before being faced with the accusations.

After Moon Jesus said they were not lying - the most pressing issue - Sage pressed on with the threatening tone.

Quote:You are on very thin ice here. Are you sticking with not conversing with me at all?

Moon Jesus proceeded to explain themselves. After that, the only response they got was having a banshark used on them.

After this, Moon Jesus made the appeal above. In it, they explained the situation and addressed further why they did not know the things they were accused of lying about knowing, and referred to Sage's questioning with,
Quote:I didn't appreciate the rhetorical questions or condescending attitude I was given and I feel like I was banned in an arbitrary and capricious manner.

Due to that, Sage denied the appeal. His response, split up to address each part, is:
Quote:I was planning on meeting appeals with this by asking you if you understood either A: Why this was foolish(Attempting to mow down a wizard with a mulebot-as a fairly long time player) or B: Why I was certain this was lying if there was no foolishness involved.

However, my questioning is, to you, condescending, so I will not subject you to more of it.

Appeal denied.

I don't believe it is healthy to an honest dialogue to punish people for referring to their attitude in a way they don't like. Unfounded criticism, of course, should be argued against or ignored if the critic has demonstrably acted in bad faith. This is not unfounded, and unless there is more to the story that would be well to be shown, there isn't particular reason to think the person is acting in bad faith.

Quote:If you want to actually open a dialogue on those two options, I'm completely open though.
Also, something I want to make clear here; this entire thing isn't malice on my part. It's baffled. "Why would a mulebot be bad at running over a wizard" shouldn't be a hard question to answer-or at least, to come up with some answer to-and I pretty much just wanted an answer.

If one wanted the answer to that, it would have been much better to follow up the original question-answer in the PMs. The place that clarification could have been asked for is exactly where Sage began overtly accusing Moon Jesus of lying.

Quote:Or like, an admission of wanting to cause chaos. Either would have gotten a fast warning. This is befuddling.

And there it is again, the clear assumption that the person is lying and implying they should confess. If they're telling the truth, this will only frustrate them further. If they're lying, why would they out themselves as a liar here?


In summary: I am not making a judgement to absolutely claim Moon Jesus was telling the truth or lying. I do believe, however, that Sage became too ingrained too quickly in assuming they're lying, and used their insistence as evidence. If there are a few critical points, they are Sage's initial "question plus the clear accusation of lying", then Sage banning them wordlessly right after they explain themselves, and then Sage denying the appeal because they didn't like their questioning being called condescending.

Sage, I hope you can try thinking from their perspective after you go through this. Forget about what you know the adminhood to be like, what ease as an admin you have with other admins. Consider a player, one who very well have just made a stupid mistake and been accused of lying and then gotten banned for sticking to their guns. Please don't end up too sure of the conclusion you came to. Think about, frankly, how scary it would be for them to start pressuring you about telling the truth when you already are telling the truth. This reality is not a certain one, but it is a very much possible one.

As another note, I believe this complaint still stands even if it were that Moon Jesus were lying; this all wasn't the way to go about it if it was so.

Logs: The forum post, relinked here for convenience: https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916

Extra Information: None at present.
#2
I appreciate you making this thread. You hit the nail on the head on a lot of things. Now that the ban appeal thread's done and my bans lifted I feel comfortable adding my thoughts.

First off, I feel like this snippet from the beginning of the PM conversation best puts things in perspective:

Admin PM from SageAcrin

You have bigger problems right now. Like me not believing that one bit. You have played wizard repeatedly. Can you not see a problem with that? 

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: Believing that I wanted to kill the wizard with the mulebot?

Admin PM from SageAcrin

Yes. What thing can a wizard do that prevents that? 

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: He can do lots of things but isnt that the point of the game

Admin PM from SageAcrin
What thing makes it much more likely that you were joyriding to cause havoc instead? Coming clean here is much safer. Trust me. 

Admin PM from SageAcrin

Lying to admins is straight up in the rules as a thing you don't do. 

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: im not lying 

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: clearly you dont believe me so theres not much else i can say

Admin PM from SageAcrin
You are on very thin ice here. Are you sticking with not conversing with me at all?

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I wanted to run the wizard over

Admin PM from SageAcrin

Very well then. That's your answer.


I put it as plainly as I could and Sage wasn't having it. After that last PM I could literally feel the ban reason being typed up and I knew I didn't have much time left. So I rapid-fire typed up exactly everything I did or intended to do that round leading up to it and hoped they would understand somewhat:

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I just wanted to run the wizard over with the mule bot I'm sorry that brendan got ran over it was an accident

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I ordered a bunch this round because i didnt know you could, I initially wasn't going to hack them to run anything over

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: BUt then there was a wizard so I only hacked the one I was riding

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I wanted to practice for my enxt antag round because I want to run that as a gimmick, army of mulebots running people over

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I dont know what else to say at this point I can feel this is obviously not stacked in my favor but thats the truth and my story

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: I ran 1 crewmember over by accidnet and he shot me a bunch of times in retaliation, didn't die, I almost died, i don't see any harm or foul here its not like i went on a rampage


But I was banned after typing my last reply PM without any response from Sage.

It's obvious now that Sage wanted a confession out of me that I was intentionally trying to kill others and cause chaos, which wasn't my actual intention:


Quote:https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=14483&pid=148916

Also, something I want to make clear here; this entire thing isn't malice on my part. It's baffled. "Why would a mulebot be bad at running over a wizard" shouldn't be a hard question to answer-or at least, to come up with some answer to-and I pretty much just wanted an answer.

Or like, an admission of wanting to cause chaos. Either would have gotten a fast warning. This is befuddling.

It wasn't a hard question to answer at all, which is why it came off rhetorical to me. 

And I did answer it, from the PM convo above:

Admin PM from SageAcrin

Yes. What thing can a wizard do that prevents that? 

Reply PM to-SageAcrin: He can do lots of things but isnt that the point of the game

It just seems like the actual offense of running someone over with the mulebot stopped being the actual issue, shortly after Sage PM'd me it went from being about the mule bot incident to just the simple act of me not answering their question (that I felt was rhetorical, therefore didn't feel like It mattered if I clearly answered it or not) in a manner they deemed satisfactory, like you put in better words than me in the OP.

Lying to an admin definitely isn't a good thing to do, but isn't the context of the question something that should be weighted as well? It seems like I got a full week ban simply for being unable to state that I do or do not know why a mulebot would be bad for killing a wizard. Or in other words, refusing to answer what I saw as a rhetorical question. If I lied and said "I wasn't riding the mule bot, I didn't do it" etc... thats probably a more severe lie to tell that warrants a lengthy ban.

In the end Sage has lifted the ban after my appeal so it's water under the bridge now, I just felt I needed to get my thoughts out before I move on completely from it, because for some reason this whole thing did frustrate/bother me a decent amount enough to get me typing.


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