Goonhub
05-19-2020, 09:44 PM
Admin: SageAcrin
Server: First part was on Goon2, second part was on these Forums.
Date + Time: 5/19/20 unknown time for goon2 part, 5/20/20 12:55 AM for forums part
Synopsis: See thread https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916. The PM logs are the first part, the response to the user's post is the second part.
Regarding the first part, I do not believe Sage acted appropriately in dealing with the person who was PM'd, Moon Jesus. While they began with asking questions to get to the truth of the case, they said, in the middle of asking questions,
After Moon Jesus said they were not lying - the most pressing issue - Sage pressed on with the threatening tone.
Moon Jesus proceeded to explain themselves. After that, the only response they got was having a banshark used on them.
After this, Moon Jesus made the appeal above. In it, they explained the situation and addressed further why they did not know the things they were accused of lying about knowing, and referred to Sage's questioning with,
Due to that, Sage denied the appeal. His response, split up to address each part, is:
I don't believe it is healthy to an honest dialogue to punish people for referring to their attitude in a way they don't like. Unfounded criticism, of course, should be argued against or ignored if the critic has demonstrably acted in bad faith. This is not unfounded, and unless there is more to the story that would be well to be shown, there isn't particular reason to think the person is acting in bad faith.
If one wanted the answer to that, it would have been much better to follow up the original question-answer in the PMs. The place that clarification could have been asked for is exactly where Sage began overtly accusing Moon Jesus of lying.
And there it is again, the clear assumption that the person is lying and implying they should confess. If they're telling the truth, this will only frustrate them further. If they're lying, why would they out themselves as a liar here?
In summary: I am not making a judgement to absolutely claim Moon Jesus was telling the truth or lying. I do believe, however, that Sage became too ingrained too quickly in assuming they're lying, and used their insistence as evidence. If there are a few critical points, they are Sage's initial "question plus the clear accusation of lying", then Sage banning them wordlessly right after they explain themselves, and then Sage denying the appeal because they didn't like their questioning being called condescending.
Sage, I hope you can try thinking from their perspective after you go through this. Forget about what you know the adminhood to be like, what ease as an admin you have with other admins. Consider a player, one who very well have just made a stupid mistake and been accused of lying and then gotten banned for sticking to their guns. Please don't end up too sure of the conclusion you came to. Think about, frankly, how scary it would be for them to start pressuring you about telling the truth when you already are telling the truth. This reality is not a certain one, but it is a very much possible one.
As another note, I believe this complaint still stands even if it were that Moon Jesus were lying; this all wasn't the way to go about it if it was so.
Logs: The forum post, relinked here for convenience: https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916
Extra Information: None at present.
Server: First part was on Goon2, second part was on these Forums.
Date + Time: 5/19/20 unknown time for goon2 part, 5/20/20 12:55 AM for forums part
Synopsis: See thread https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916. The PM logs are the first part, the response to the user's post is the second part.
Regarding the first part, I do not believe Sage acted appropriately in dealing with the person who was PM'd, Moon Jesus. While they began with asking questions to get to the truth of the case, they said, in the middle of asking questions,
Quote:What thing makes it much more likely that you were joyriding to cause havoc instead? Coming clean here is much safer. Trust me.I do not think it was appropriate to clearly accuse the affected with lying to them. In the case that they may be telling the truth, this easily reads as Sage suggesting they won't consider them being truthful to be possible. Since the accusations of lying were part of the same message asking them to clarify further, it was impossible for them to further explain themselves before being faced with the accusations.
Lying to admins is straight up in the rules as a thing you don't do.
After Moon Jesus said they were not lying - the most pressing issue - Sage pressed on with the threatening tone.
Quote:You are on very thin ice here. Are you sticking with not conversing with me at all?
Moon Jesus proceeded to explain themselves. After that, the only response they got was having a banshark used on them.
After this, Moon Jesus made the appeal above. In it, they explained the situation and addressed further why they did not know the things they were accused of lying about knowing, and referred to Sage's questioning with,
Quote:I didn't appreciate the rhetorical questions or condescending attitude I was given and I feel like I was banned in an arbitrary and capricious manner.
Due to that, Sage denied the appeal. His response, split up to address each part, is:
Quote:I was planning on meeting appeals with this by asking you if you understood either A: Why this was foolish(Attempting to mow down a wizard with a mulebot-as a fairly long time player) or B: Why I was certain this was lying if there was no foolishness involved.
However, my questioning is, to you, condescending, so I will not subject you to more of it.
Appeal denied.
I don't believe it is healthy to an honest dialogue to punish people for referring to their attitude in a way they don't like. Unfounded criticism, of course, should be argued against or ignored if the critic has demonstrably acted in bad faith. This is not unfounded, and unless there is more to the story that would be well to be shown, there isn't particular reason to think the person is acting in bad faith.
Quote:If you want to actually open a dialogue on those two options, I'm completely open though.
Also, something I want to make clear here; this entire thing isn't malice on my part. It's baffled. "Why would a mulebot be bad at running over a wizard" shouldn't be a hard question to answer-or at least, to come up with some answer to-and I pretty much just wanted an answer.
If one wanted the answer to that, it would have been much better to follow up the original question-answer in the PMs. The place that clarification could have been asked for is exactly where Sage began overtly accusing Moon Jesus of lying.
Quote:Or like, an admission of wanting to cause chaos. Either would have gotten a fast warning. This is befuddling.
And there it is again, the clear assumption that the person is lying and implying they should confess. If they're telling the truth, this will only frustrate them further. If they're lying, why would they out themselves as a liar here?
In summary: I am not making a judgement to absolutely claim Moon Jesus was telling the truth or lying. I do believe, however, that Sage became too ingrained too quickly in assuming they're lying, and used their insistence as evidence. If there are a few critical points, they are Sage's initial "question plus the clear accusation of lying", then Sage banning them wordlessly right after they explain themselves, and then Sage denying the appeal because they didn't like their questioning being called condescending.
Sage, I hope you can try thinking from their perspective after you go through this. Forget about what you know the adminhood to be like, what ease as an admin you have with other admins. Consider a player, one who very well have just made a stupid mistake and been accused of lying and then gotten banned for sticking to their guns. Please don't end up too sure of the conclusion you came to. Think about, frankly, how scary it would be for them to start pressuring you about telling the truth when you already are telling the truth. This reality is not a certain one, but it is a very much possible one.
As another note, I believe this complaint still stands even if it were that Moon Jesus were lying; this all wasn't the way to go about it if it was so.
Logs: The forum post, relinked here for convenience: https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...pid=148916
Extra Information: None at present.
