Encyclopedia Robustica: Damage values and why they matter...

[Val]

The combat system in this game is truly a marvel to behold. While I once considered tweaks and improvements, the way it is "as is" is seemingly the way it will be for the long term.

My suggestion thread here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=89

So in saying that, I'm sure most of us or at least some of us are aware that certain items on the station are more robust than others. That is to say, they deal more damage than something else would. Over time, certain items were made weaker because fun is not allowed, ever.

In this thread, we're going to talk about what deals the most harm, how accessible these items are, whether it's fine as is or not, and if not then what ways we can improve them so that they may be acceptable. Here's just a few for example and examination...

Physical Attacks:
Punch (bare hands) - 5 Brute/hit
Kill Grab - ~5 Suffocation/sec
Grab Throw - ???
Punch (boxing gloves) - ???
Vampire bite - ???
Punch (Hulk/Empowered Wiz/Abomination) - ???

Basic items:
Thrown item (not tomatoes or eggs) - 1-5 brute
Toolbox (any) - 5 Brute/hit
Hand tools (wrench, analyzer, wirecutters, etc.) - 5 brute/hit
Glass Shard - 5 Brute/hit
Crowbar - 7 brute/hit
Metal Rod - 10 brute/hit
Air tank - 10 brute/hit
Crystal shard - 10 brute/hit
Fire Extinguisher - 15 brute/hit
Welding Tool - 15 burn/hit

Syndicate items:
.357 Revolver - 33 brute/shot, ~10 brute/hit, not sure about bleeding damage rate.
Cyalume Saber - 60 brute/hit
Red Chainsaw - 50 brute/hit
Butcher Knife - ?? brute/hit (wiki says 50, but I hear it's not even a quarter of that)
Radbow Shot - Lots of radioactive toxin damage over time, not sure what the rate is.
Syndie Pipe Bomb - Varies, but typically gibs outright if directly on the tile it's on.
Detomatrix Explosion - ~10-15 brute
Trick Cigarette - Varies, but can do up to 50 burn and brute if a direct hit.

Specialist items:
Power Pick (powered) - 5 brute/hit
Energy Gun (lethal) - 60 brute/shot, ~10 brute/hit
Stun Baton (off) - ~10 brute/hit
.38 Revolver - ~10 brute/shot, , ~10 brute/hit
Electric Chainsaw - ~10 brute/hit
Chef Knife - 5 brute/hit
Scalpel - 5 brute/hit
Cyborg RCD - ???

Horrible things:
Spray bottle (steam, 1000K) - ???
Polytrinic acid (10 units, splashed from beaker) - ???
Space Lube (slip on ground tile) - 60 brute
Plasma Bomb - Varies, but usually gibs outright if close enough.
Pipe Bomb - Varies
Holy Water (5 units, room temperature, splashed onto a vampire) - 30-50 burn

I could be wrong on a few of these and some of them are missing, but barring anything else, these are the most common ways you will be taking damage from another player at some point during the game.

The next thing is whether or not this shit matters in the grand scope of the game and combat system.

Combat tends to be somewhat luck based, as byond is a piece of shit that will lag or have random hiccups that can totally ruin your mojo and get you spaced in this game as a result. As such, you can't always rely on your 1337 MLG xXx360quickchoke_weedgoku420xXx skills to beat the fuck out of your fellow crewman.

Some people think damage values are the most important, while others think knockdown/stun/knockout power is better. The former is more reliable to follow, and although the latter is more chance-based, it's not as hard to get and is much more flexible. not unlike your mother

Indeed, if your plan is to kill or otherwise get away from someone, knocking them senseless first tends to be the best thing, as they can neither call for help or defend themselves at all. An easy kill.

You could also argue that being able to outright kill someone in just 3-4 hits is certainly much better than having to hit someone 10 or so times by comparison. An easier kill, although it's fairly harder to achieve.

So then, what would you fellows have to say about it? Got anything else to contribute or comment?

[mozi]

while playing around with the .38 I found that it does about 2 - 4 damage in bleeding, then stops (so, pretty lousy)

something I'm curious about is if there's a difference between the laser guns from QM and eguns. I once emptied an entire laser gun into a rogue borg and it didn't seem to even dent his cover

[Dachshundofdoom]

I believe the issue with using lasers on borgs stems largely from the fact that I'm pretty sure lasers always target the chest, regardless of what you have selected. The chest, of course, is the toughest part of the borg. Borgs die very quickly if you stun them and give them a few whacks in the head with something like a cyalume saber or red chainsaw. Of course, if you don't have access to those, the old standby of the extinguisher is a decent substitute so long as you have the power to stun it more than once. I know borgs can take burn damage (or so their repair menu claims) but I'm pretty sure they get a massive resistance to it.

On another note, I noticed that rods seem to do a lot of damage...sometimes. A borg was able to sap my health pretty fast with one, but they weren't really that efficient when I tried them out as a borg. They also seem to have no chance of causing any effect (knockdown, etc.).

My main question is: does Hulk actually add any brute damage to your attacks? Empowered wizards are supposed to be pretty nasty if hiding in a wall with thermals, but I've used Empower and I didn't notice a significant increase in my ability to kill people with my bare hands. Naturally, TK works better with a bludgeoning weapon (though how I'm able to telekinetically hit you with an extinguisher that never leaves my hands is beyond me.)

[mozi]

what stuns a borg? I think a stun baton is always reliable but I can never tell if a flash works or not on them. I assume a taser doesn't do much?

oh and related to hulk, someone mentioned in chat once that concussive gauntlets give around 25% extra punching power, I think. a little meager for something meant to destroy solid rock but I'll take what I can get.

[atomic1fire]

I would have thought toolboxes, and by proxy, briefcases, do more damage.
especially for how popular they are as a robusting item.

[BlackPhoenix]

I would have thought toolboxes, and by proxy, briefcases, do more damage.
especially for how popular they are as a robusting item.

They are popular for how common they are

[Nubcake]

This is as good a place to post this, though it's not finished:

STUN TIMES

==Being Punched==

knocked out test 1: 00.40.1
knocked out test 2: 00.42.8
knocked out test 3: 00.43.7

Winded test 1: 00.16.7
Winded test 2: 00.20.3
Winded test 3: 00.17.3

Knocked Down test 1: 00.20.6
Knocked Down test 2: 00.24.6
Knocked Down test 3: 00.32.9

==Being knocked out ==

in this form of knock out, you are knocked down but you can still see and hear everything around you

Gas Tank (large, blue) test 1: 03.28.0
Gas Tank (large, blue) test 1: 03.23.0
Gas Tank (large, blue) test 1: 03.28.0


==Being knocked unconcious==

In this form you cannot speak or see anything around you

Gas Tank (large, blue) test 1: 00.23.1
Gas Tank (large, blue) test 2: 00.15.5
Gas Tank (large, blue) test 3: 00.20.3

Toolbox test 1: 01.00.5
Toolbox test 2: 02.09.9
Toolbox test 3: 02.06.5

Emergency oxygentank test 1: 02.10.8
Emergency oxygentank test 2: 01.28.3
Emergency oxygentank test 3: 02.05.8

Fire extinguisher test 1: 01.30.8
Fire extinguisher test 2: 02.08.1
Fire extinguisher test 3: 02.03.1

== Being Pushed Down ==

test 1: 00.05.0
test 2: 00.04.2
test 3: 00.06.1

== STUN WEAPONS ==

Flash test 1: 00.32.1
Flash test 2: 00.27.8
Flash test 3: 00.30.2

== Being stripped ==

stripping someone of ALL items test 1: 00.15.9
stripping someone of ALL items test 2: 00.16.1
stripping someone of ALL items test 3: 00.15.7

knockout times are pretty damn long

[Merudo]

As far as I know, slipping on Space Lube does 5 damage, not 60. Are you thinking about Syndicate Cleaning Grenades?

[Val]

On another note, I noticed that rods seem to do a lot of damage...sometimes. A borg was able to sap my health pretty fast with one, but they weren't really that efficient when I tried them out as a borg. They also seem to have no chance of causing any effect (knockdown, etc.).

My main question is: does Hulk actually add any brute damage to your attacks? Empowered wizards are supposed to be pretty nasty if hiding in a wall with thermals, but I've used Empower and I didn't notice a significant increase in my ability to kill people with my bare hands. Naturally, TK works better with a bludgeoning weapon (though how I'm able to telekinetically hit you with an extinguisher that never leaves my hands is beyond me.)

Rods are fairly robust and much more so than most items on the station that you can usually get your hands on. I think knockdown and knockout chance is about equal for most items, with their chance of doing this also being about the same.

As for the Hulk power granting more damage, I think it may only apply to physical attacks like punching and not to melee or ranged attacks, but I've never properly tested it out. It would be silly if a hulk could punch through walls but only do normal damage to someone with their attacks.

what stuns a borg? I think a stun baton is always reliable but I can never tell if a flash works or not on them. I assume a taser doesn't do much?

oh and related to hulk, someone mentioned in chat once that concussive gauntlets give around 25% extra punching power, I think. a little meager for something meant to destroy solid rock but I'll take what I can get.

AFAIK, both a stun baton and a flash can totally stun a borg for roughly half the time that it stuns a human. Mining tools are surprisingly not very robust themselves for whatever reason. The Mining pick, laser drill, conc gloves, and plasma cutters don't deal any more damage than whatever you can usually find, despite their inherently powerful nature as a tool. I personally think they deserve a damage buff against mobs.

I would have thought toolboxes, and by proxy, briefcases, do more damage.
especially for how popular they are as a robusting item.

Toolboxes were nerfed on goonstation a long time ago. Before then, they were super robust, doing about as much damage as the fire extinguisher, I believe. Of course, they also nerfed p. acid and a few other things over time, but the toolbox simply isn't fearsome on Goonstation as it is on other builds of the game.

knockout times are pretty damn long

They also seem to be a bit inconsistent, and that's not to say that knockout times do not stack with one another since you can repeatedly knock someone unconscious while they're knocked out. I'm not sure what it all attributes to, but hitting someone with something heavy will likely result in someone being out of commission for a lot longer than merely punching them down if your results are conclusive.

As far as I know, slipping on Space Lube does 5 damage, not 60. Are you thinking about Syndicate Cleaning Grenades?

No, I'm pretty sure slipping on space lube does a ton of damage from the last time I experimented with it as a chemistry scientist. I made a lube-smoke bomb (on myself, like a fool) to cover a small area (the arrivals hallway) with space lube. I wasn't a traitor, but most of the other station was much more trafficked and I needed a quiet spot to experiment, as research had been caught in a plasma fire.

I was at full health when I did this and as soon as I took a step, I slipped across the floor and the health indicator went down to red-orange (severe injuries). The odd thing about space lube is that once you take the initial damage, you stop taking anymore from it. You could slip four times on the same space lube and you'd still only bear the damage you initially took.

Unless they changed it recently, space lube hurts a lot to slip on. I don't know if it can be attributed to anything specific, but I know that all of my experiences with the space lube you can make in chem have resulted in taking about as much damage as a laser shot when you slip on it.

[Anticheese]

I'd love to see the toolbox returned to its former glory. Fire extinguishers are common enough, and it'd be nice to have carrying your tools in anything that isn't a utility belt not be a massive liability.

[Conor12]

I was at full health when I did this and as soon as I took a step, I slipped across the floor and the health indicator went down to red-orange (severe injuries). The odd thing about space lube is that once you take the initial damage, you stop taking anymore from it. You could slip four times on the same space lube and you'd still only bear the damage you initially took.

I always thought that slipping more than once on lube did make the damage sky-rocket.

[Nitrous]

I was at full health when I did this and as soon as I took a step, I slipped across the floor and the health indicator went down to red-orange (severe injuries). The odd thing about space lube is that once you take the initial damage, you stop taking anymore from it. You could slip four times on the same space lube and you'd still only bear the damage you initially took.

I always thought that slipping more than once on lube did make the damage sky-rocket.

I am pretty sure spacelube hurts on a per tile basis, like if you were to slip on 5 tiles consecutively it would give you 25(?) damage. ((x * y damage.) X is the damage for one tile, and y is the number of tiles you slip on)

[Oddball]

This is as good a place to post this, though it's not finished:

STUN TIMES

not to piss on your parade or anything nubcake but you should probably add +/-5 seconds to each of those to account for lag and BYOND being a piece of shit

[Winged_Chiller]

not to piss on your parade or anything nubcake but you should probably add +/-5 minutes to each of those to account for lag and BYOND being a piece of shit

Fixed it for you.

[Marquesas]

Okay, here we go.
#1: Butcher Knife does something along the lines of 25 plus 25 in bleeding damage so it's a good 50 damage in total.
#2: Your throwing values are off and bullshit, because it's totally item dependent, it's mostly a coincidence most items do 5ish damage when thrown. An artbox is perfectly capable of 50ish throw damage after 30 feedings.
#3: And that reminds me, the artbox is not on the list as potentially the most robust item in the game. In one round I fed it to the point where a single hit put anyone into critical (ie. it did more than 100 brute per hit)
#4: The syndie pipe bomb is not quantifyable in this sense. What we do know about it is that inside devastation radius (which is about 3x3 if my memory serves for an 5x5 bomb), it gibs. The same goes for any bomb - it is typically a sure kill within half its range (which is basically then 5x5 for a 11x11 bomb), and due to environmental deterioration, pretty much a guaranteed kill within its full radius. Not only that, but it also produces a knockout effect within 1.5x-2x (the exact number eludes me right now) of its range, and the oxygen loss will probably prevent anyone from getting up in time in that range.
#5: Polyacid is currently capped at 75 brute. I'm not *sure* about 10 units, but 30 units splashed to the face does 75 brute damage.
#6: Finally, space lube is more along the lines of 10 damage per slip. Countless times I have slipped over 3ish times on a space lubed surface before falling over (this is pretty normal, and each slip will count towards the damage), and got beaten down by it to yellow health with is roughly around 70%, so the math adds up. It doesn't add up with 5 brute. Syndicate Cleaning Grenades contain polyacid which is no longer harmful as foam so it's basically the same lube.