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Huk/Heiraphont
#1
A wizard had golem, I made him a few poisonus mixes, and later got a pm from heirapont to stop helping the wizard.

A little later I ended up dying. When chemistry was exploded (I assume by huk), I said in deadchat that I didn't think making chemicals for the wizard was a big problem.
Huk replied that he'd kill me if he saw me in chem for the next hundred rounds and he wouldn't care if I cried on irc. So here are the tears.

Beer and welding fuel golems are all that ever happens, they are boring. Making decent golems requires lots of chemistry time, I know because I always pick golem.
While giving tools to a traitor isn't the nicest behavior, it's no more annoying than going with a mob of vigilantes.

What's there to get as angry as huk did? That's the appropriate response for serious grief.
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#2
Well, for my part, I stand by what I said to you. It's not like you were making the chems and the wizard stole them. You made them specifically for him, calling him to Chemistry several times to collect them. You were actively helping him make extremely dangerous golems.

Have you considered that making more deadly golems should be on the wizard's shoulders purely as a show of skill? Being HANDED nuclear golems versus securing the means to make them himself should be a feature of the golem spell.

Actively helping traitors to kill crewmembers is a long-standing bad thing to do.

As a side note, for the wizard's part in all of this, I apologized that his stash of deadly chemicals had to be cut off as a result, and he was very understanding.
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#3
Let me reiterate.

I made the chemicals on purpose to give them to the wizard. No stealing, no accident. And I said this in the first post. No request from the wizard either.

I gave him the chemicals specifically because I saw he had golem. Golem is a fun spell, but it's impossible to make anything beyond napalm. It never ever happens. I pick golem all the time, and defending chemistry long enough when more than 10 people are playing is impossible.
See Isaac's thread about golems in the suggestion forum.

As for helping traitors. On one side, giving them chemicals for golems is a far cry from throwing a flashbang in a crowd so the traitor can kill with ease, or handing them a gun.
On the other side, the lynchmobs, or the people who take guns to go after traitors every round they play is just as bad. And this never gets dealt with by admins.

You want to say "you've helped him enough, stop now", fine. But keep some sense of proportion when you intervene. What's the point of deleting how many, 4 golem pills? And exploding chemistry. And huk's smarmy promises of more payback in deadchat.
One round with dangerous golems is nothing but a good thing. There's no need to promise a hundred rounds of gibbing.
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#4
if huk had actually gibbed you 100 rounds in a row for rolling chemist there might be something to complain about but as it stands you were warned for doing something that is bannable and that's all.
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#5
I won't expend much more time on this thread, as for the most part I've explained my side of it. But I would like to point out a few parts where I terribly disagree.

Clarks Wrote:I gave him the chemicals specifically because I saw he had golem. Golem is a fun spell, but it's impossible to make anything beyond napalm. It never ever happens. I pick golem all the time, and defending chemistry long enough when more than 10 people are playing is impossible.

That is the point. It should be much harder for the Wizard to create horrible golems. It should require more effort, because they are more dangerous. That was my point. Yes, it's a fun spell, and yes it has the potential to do a lot of damage. That is why scaling of dangerous chemicals versus the difficulty of obtaining them exists.

Quote:As for helping traitors. On one side, giving them chemicals for golems is a far cry from throwing a flashbang in a crowd so the traitor can kill with ease, or handing them a gun.

I think it would be fair to argue that giving the Wizard golems that are extremely dangerous is potentially worse than either of those examples.
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#6
Traitors get help pretty often. With gifts or the excuse of a bribe, or someone going the extra mile to steal them from a mob. Sometimes it crosses the line, and sometimes not.

I wasn't giving the wizard any more chemicals. And I was already dead when chemistry was exploded. When that happened I said that it was exaggerating (something like "I don't see the problem with giving him stuff"), then huk started ranting.

I don't get why they had to delete four golem pills when security/hos sometimes takes bribes to turn away from murder.
It's not like I personally help every traitor, screw security every round and adminhelp about everything.
It happened once and it happened because there was a chance to have some pretty deadly golem for once.
And it got the reaction of "you're breaking a huge rule" instead of "don't do anymore, it's enough".

Heiraphont Wrote:That is the point. It should be much harder for the Wizard to create horrible golems. It should require more effort, because they are more dangerous. That was my point. Yes, it's a fun spell, and yes it has the potential to do a lot of damage. That is why scaling of dangerous chemicals versus the difficulty of obtaining them exists.

I think it would be fair to argue that giving the Wizard golems that are extremely dangerous is potentially worse than either of those examples.

Golem is incredibly broken, and hardly ever chosen since animate the dead or revenge clown are available.
A wizard with golems uses either alcohol or discount dan. When did you ever see dangerous ones since donut, when zeta was off station.
To make good golems you not only need to have the recipes, but you need to lock chemistry down for enough time to mix them. It just doesn't work. I've seen it every time I pick golem, and from the golems I see other wizards make. It doesn't work. There is a long thread about the problem with the spell in the ideas forum.
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#7
Is this allowed? Am I allowed to post in this thread? Please feel free to replace my post with some insulting text/dog photo if I'm not.

Clarks Wrote:I don't get why they had to delete four golem pills when security/hos sometimes takes bribes to turn away from murder.

I don't think this is really the same thing, though. When a traitors bribes a sec officer, he has to take his own initiative. He has to decide to bribe an officer, choose an officer, and then deliver the bribe. Even then, the officer is really only indirectly helping the traitor, and certainly not to murder.

Whereas you, helping the wizard, the wizard did not take any initiative: you (if I'm reading this correctly) took the initiative and decided to help the wizard. Not only that, but you were directly helping the wizard to murder people.

I think even in your example, it would be ok if a security guard released the wizard from this situation for a bribe, but giving the wizard chemicals isn't really the same.

Clarks Wrote:It doesn't work. There is a long thread about the problem with the spell in the ideas forum.

It is also true that the spell may not be the best choice as it works now, but that isn't really an IC issue so I think that taking steps to make up for it IC isn't really a good thing. It is an OOC issue, so I think it should only be resolved OOC (eg, giving people tips on how to better use the spell, etc), and giving a wizard dangerous chemicals for this IC is bad.
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#8
I get that part, wonk.

But they treated the issue as if I was handing the wizard a bomb (beside the fact that people sell bombs at the market every now and again, and it's not treated as a big deal). Golems instead are laughably ineffective; and making better ones impossible even if you know the recipes.
Defending a place is not something wizards are made to do.
On top of it I was handed "don't complain in irc, or I'll kick you out of there".

Doing it once wasn't as big a deal as they made it, and I don't think it deserved that kind of reaction.
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#9
Honestly, you are known for being shitty and trying to skirt the rules without breaking them, and I'm not going to tolerate you trying to push boundaries by being as shit as possible without openly killing people at random. I believe you do deserve that kind of reaction, if it will stop you from being such a smarmy dick all the time. The first thing you said to me in deadchat was "JOKES ON YOU, I DON'T KNOW ANY CHEMISTRY!" and you were trying to push your luck by pissing me off.

Knowing how much you like to complain about things you don't like in IRC, I gave you that warning.
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#10
HukHukHuk Wrote:Honestly, you are known for being shitty and trying to skirt the rules without breaking them, and I'm not going to tolerate you trying to push boundaries by being as shit as possible without openly killing people at random.

Where does this come from? I don't go around trying to find excuses for a fight or to take people down.
I get killed a lot of times because I don't beat people into critical or go on after I knock them down, insted run away.

HukHukHuk Wrote:he first thing you said to me in deadchat was "JOKES ON YOU, I DON'T KNOW ANY CHEMISTRY!" and you were trying to push your luck by pissing me off.

The first thing I said in deadchat was something like "I don't get what the problem is" (giving reagents for golems when they're that hard to make).

What the fuck. I am definitely not what you make out, neither usually nor in this circustance.
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#11
Honestly I would have given you a jobban from science jobs and a week or so vacation for it. You don't seem to understand that THIS WAS A WARNING NOT TO KEEP DOING SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD NORMALLY BAN YOU FOR. Goddamn, man.
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#12
Pope, I'm not complaining about the warning. Heiraphont shot me a pm asking to not give the wizard more chemicals, and I didn't.

What I have a problem with is huk's boasts. Since in game I yell a lot on the radio, but when it comes to fighting I'm pretty tame.
HukHukHuk Wrote:Honestly, you are known for being shitty and trying to skirt the rules without breaking them, and I'm not going to tolerate you trying to push boundaries by being as shit as possible without openly killing people at random.[...]
This is bullshit.

And again, I'm not saying that giving those chems to the wizard was fair play; more a bad deed that is fun only the first time.
But here is how bad a spell golem really it. That's why this one time I didn't go "oh, yeah. It's as bad as handing the wizard a bomb".
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#13
No, you really do have a habit of being a contrary little turd and getting as close to breaking the rules as you can without going over. Good thing the rules are open to interpretation by the admin staff! I'm sorry you don't like the fact that one of us finally had enough of your shit and decided to push back, but it doesn't change the fact that we are getting sick of your shit.
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#14
Yes, what bothered me was the tone "finally I can vent on you".

I don't go after people or get carried away so much (maybe except for calling names a certain hos a few times) to see myself as a big troublemaker.
And if I'm taking some petty revenge, I stay well clear of fucking someone's round, not because of the rules, but because it would be stupid to do.
So I don't see what's heating this powderkeg.
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#15
So maybe I'm a huge retard and don't know what I'm talking about but depending on what exactly he was making it sounds like he could have been making things more interesting/fun by giving the extra chemicals to the wizard and making things more fun/interesting is not something that should ever be punished.

Also the whole "Don't help bad guys" rule seems like it's hardly ever actually enforced even in cases where people are literally feeding stunned, helpless victims to changelings in order to appease them like some evil volcano god.
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