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sageacrin ban
Who banned you?: sageacrin

Byond Key: Dylguy90
Date of Ban: 9/25/2019 6:45PM PST
Specified Reason for Ban: Flamering people to "contain" them in pathology and "contain" viruses after inviting people to come on down and get infected. Basically making himself an antagonist on non-antagonist rounds. Use fucking monkeys.
Ban Length: 7 Days.

What led to the ban?: 
- I was playing pathology, trying to learn the field.

- I made a mutative virus to test on 3 monkeys and see what would evolve. While I was manipulating it a T5 symptom emerged (nice!) and I didn't know what it was yet, but decided to test it on the monkey.

- While it was growing I decided to make a flamer for two reasons: 
1. In-character monkey disposal. 
2. Personal defense, as I've been killed several times in the path lab.

- I injected the first monkey being held in the quarantine area and was watching. I thought it would be a fun opportunity to let an assistant kill himself (similar to a mechanic suicide button) so I offered just that over the radio. Two people came over:
1. The first one demonstrated knowledge of pathology, asking me if I had a T5. I told him I did and he was jazzed, as was I. He seemed excited and nice and very willing to hang out and catch it in isolation with the monkeys, so I let him in. 
2. The second guy was a rando assistant. I straight up asked him "do you consent fully to probably dying" or something like that and he was also fine so I let him in too.

- Here's where the trouble started. When I opened the door to let the second guy in, the first guy (who originally seemed fine) comes sprinting out and tries to get out of the lab. I know he knows he has a t5 symptom and is trying to spread it so I assume he is an antagonist. I grab the flamer and try to block his exit. The second guy at that point unlocks both doors behind me and the first guy starts pushing me out of the lab. At that point I make the decision to flame him because he's trying to spread a t5 symptom and essentially ruin everyone's round.

That's the entirety of what happened.

Why am I appealing? / Why should I be unbanned: I'm literally playing pathology as specified on the wiki. There's nothing controversial about this, offering suicide jobs to assistants, or having weapons for personal defense. I mean technically the third is a violation of sec rules but certainly not an antagonist-only thing. The admin I spoke with also mentioned me setting a guy on the shuttle on fire at round end, which is true, and was a similar situation to the one that happened this time (a guy purposefully caught the plague and tried to spread it). I'm posting now because I'm a little steamed about the crap I was getting for literally playing by the rules, but a 7 day ban isn't really that bad. I'm just genuinely curious how I'm supposed to win in this situation? Do I let the guy out and infect the station because I'm not supposed to attack him? But I know he's purposefully trying to kill people, which is also a violation of the first rule and grounds for assuming he's an antag. I like playing pathology, I like creating hell plagues and testing them on monkeys and willing assistants, and as far as I can tell this is all fine. I keep catching PM's about this though, which is understandable given the destructive nature of the plagues you can make. I really don't know what I'm supposed to do though.

Which rule did you break? As far as I can tell the admin thought I broke the first rule, attacking someone without a reason. I had a valid reason though - he had demonstrated ample evidence of being an antag and was about to take an action that could have resulted in mass death.

Evasion Attempts: None, this just happened.
There's a lot going on here, so let's unpack it.

First off, there's the general difference between what you're doing from, say, a suicide machine-which in this case was forcing someone to stay locked indefinitely in a little room while they very boringly died from what turned out to be a T3 symptom, plasma farts(which is very dangerous, but, unlit, extremely boring to die from. Actually it's boring to die from anyways.). So you said "Here let me kill you entertainingly", the person agreed, and then were subjected to a very slow death in a tiny room they could break out of. So they did.

You had a flamethrower ready for that.

And let's be clear; you shooting someone to death is not the same as a suicide machine. That's very different. That's you getting the fun of shooting them to death as a non-antagonist. I believe the popular term is "self-antagging". And you built a very dangerous weapon capable of a lot of collateral to do it with(that is not especially better at stopping plaguespread).

Secondly; I *meant* to ban you a few *days* ago for A: flamethrowering someone you *injected with a pathogen without warning* and then proceeded to try to flamer for not going into containment, and then for flamering multiple people on the shuttle without being an antagonist *that* time either. However, I had to do an after-the-round ban and I'm new to the tools, so I guess something went wrong there. Rather than press the issue awkwardly, I figured I'd see if it came up again.

Thirdly; you took the action that led to mass death, and it's stated in your ban. Don't use crew for pathogen testing; use monkeys. Crew can be antagonists who-as you said-will promptly walk out. And a crew member could have spawned much better gear than a flamer. You're effectively antagonist aiding.

(It's dangerous enough using monkeys. But let's face it. Pathogen has to study somehow. It's much easier for an antag to simply walk out than it is to snatch a monkey though, particularly if you're inviting every caller in.)

Fourthly, it's laced throughout your statements and shown in the previous case I saw; You really just kinda want to be a crazy fucking medical doctor with a flamethrower. Cut it out!
Hey sage, I had a nice writeup written about changing my flamethrower habits (inspired by The Thing, trivial, certainly something I would be happy to stop doing) but on re-reading your post there are a number of really sinister things you're claiming I did that are patently false. This deserves clearing up.

1. "So you said "Here let me kill you entertainingly", the person agreed, and then were subjected to a very slow death in a tiny room they could break out of. So they did."
- The person said they played path and was excited that I had a T5 when I offered to let them catch it. I did, factually, have a T5 symptom on a virus and afaik it hadn't gotten to stage 5 yet. From our conversation it was obvious we both found path pretty un-boring and it is a huge logical leap to assume that ANYBODY would find dying of a disease boring and therefore he MUST have been wanting to escape.

2. "

Whoops, guess space post. Continuing on below:

1. (side note) - In the future, I'd be happy to strip and weld volunteers into the room to avoid accidents.

2. You claim I injected someone "without warning" the other day. I have literally never done this in my entire ss13 non-antag career, and that would be a MASSIVE rules violation. I have never done that. I did try to flamer them when they tried to escape because I assumed they were an antag. They literally told me "now to spread this" before leaving the lab. What was I supposed to do?

3. The action I took that "led to mass death" was play pathology and create a plague to test on monkeys. That's literally just playing pathology. Don't use crew for pathogen testing - is this actually a rule? Because it sounds to me like it's your personal preference. I've never read anything like that in the wiki or rules and I have read both comprehensively. It's an obvious point that the crew can be antags, and I think a good solution to that would be welding them in.

I'm literally just trying to make fun plagues and test them on monkeys and the occasional assistant. I think welding willing participants in is a good solution for avoiding future incidents. I'll stop making flamers because that's waaaaay more trouble than it's worth and was only ever a gimmick to start with. Is there anything else here I'm not considering? You told me I did a ton of stuff that I never did, so I don't even really know what to say to that, but for the stuff I did do, I think that about covers it.

But yeah motives aside, and flat out wrong information from the other day aside, it sounds like the only actual written rule you're saying I broke was:

- attacking someone with a flamethrower.

I'm not trying to suck you into a huge discussion so all I will say is this: I legitimately and with good reason thought they were an antag.

And I'd love to be able to keep playing this week so how about I agree to not put hands on a flamethrower and to keep the testing to monkeys and nude, welded in assistants for a while, and you unban me? Is that good or is there anything you think I'm not grasping here?
(09-25-2019, 06:29 PM)dylguy90 Wrote: I like playing pathology, I like creating hell plagues and testing them on monkeys and willing assistants, and as far as I can tell this is all fine. I keep catching PM's about this though, which is understandable given the destructive nature of the plagues you can make. I really don't know what I'm supposed to do though.

Using pathology to create plagues and deadly diseases as a non antag and not cures is pretty shitty in of itself, for the record.
Additionally, there wouldn't have been an issue if you didn't test shit on players.
Finally, regarding your last statement: You do -NOT- get to decide how your ban is handled. You will be unbanned when the 7 days is up, possibly with a jobban from medical.
Apparently there was one detail missed in the log-diving, since a lot of this previous stuff had to be dug up in post-round since the actual main thing I originally investigated was "oh he's flamering people on the shuttle as a non-antag, a weapon that requires huge forethought and effort to make".

You are correct, and I need to apologize on that point; You always asked for consent before injecting. Of course, you always flamered people if they said they'd spread it or, apparently, left the area. (I've got the log snippets if you want them.) I'm not sure precisely how that's better, but you are correct.

Did it once occur to you to learn to cure your own plagues, out of curiousity, or did you go for the way that was more fun for you and not the other people? That's kinda the same deal with the "having human guinea pigs at all" thing here. If you're interested in the system-and not being an antagonist on non-antagonist rounds-it's possible to be, oh, about as safe as Toxins with it.

I mean yeah, Toxins blows up every other round. But still. There's kinda an intent thing, you know?

At any rate, here's the issue here. You've done kinda a horrible job of convincing me of literally anything, especially that you want to do anything fun for anyone else. Kinda the opposite, you're sorta a fun muncher with your gimmicks. That's fine on antag! Fun munching is like, the antag round thing, you get to go nuts and do your crazy stuff, set people on fire and get people to test your pathogen and then be really sloppy with your containment.

Your answer to this ban is specifically not put hands on a flamethrower specifically, which would be great if I didn't know ten more thematically appropriate and equally dangerous options in medbay, and to put players either in a position where they scream over the radio until someone breaks them out OR you remove their radio as a non-antag(against the rules), off the top of my head.

And that's ignoring the fact that the whole welded naked into a pathogen area that may, in fact, be a badly made arctic chills that never kills is in fact a really, really awful round! Even the best pathogen creators know how mutations work well enough to know a player won't always die from the most lethal pathogen-that's how mutations work with path.

Basically I'm concerned you ain't learned nothin' and know both too much-about how to rig up lethal and miserable for player situations-and not enough-about how to stop 'em. Appeal denied here.

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