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Verrill banned by flourish
#1
Banned by: Flourish

Username: Verrill

Original reason: "Reason: As an AI under default laws, ignored a couple players' commands because they thought they were antags (they weren't). Eventually locked one in a super hot room, which led to their death. Also electrified a few airlocks indefinitely (including EVA and AI upload foyer) and set their turrets to lethal, shooting two separate players. Wasn't on when this was brought to admin attention - please read the rules and the wiki page on AI and make an appeal on the forums if you'd like to play here.
Banned By: flourish
(This is a permanent ban).
If you believe you were unjustly banned, head to the forums and post an appeal. "


I'm going to try and explain myself here. Forgive me this will be pretty long. I will attempt to answer any of the accusations in order. Firstly I may have missed some orders because I was new to AI and chat moves so fast I'm sure I missed one or two; but I made sure I was following any orders I saw. There was two incidents where I didn't listen to an order. One was early in the round. A clown was calling for help from maintenance and was being murdered. I locked the door until security came and got apprehended them. Which is definitely law 1, preventing others from getting harmed.

The second time I ignored an order was a member of medical personnel attempting to retrieve a dead body from the burning toxins storage. If I had let him into the room he would have immediately died of plasma fire and would have been against law 1. I also told him as such when I denied the order.

The incident with the "hot room" there was two individuals who went into the toxins lab and were setting up very obvious bombs. (Moving plasma tanks around and messing with valves) (I was certain one of them was an antagonist so I was watching what they were doing in the first place. I had witnessed this individual killing someone earlier in the round) I alerted people on comms and someone from security came in to stop them. I closed the door right before the antag could escape. (Law 1) The second antag then lit the plasma container causing a huge explosion killing all three of them. I was trying to stall so that more backup could come, I didn't expect them so suicide bomb. I'm sorry that it got the innocent killed, but I was going to open the door as soon as backup arrived. 

The airlock electrifying for AI upload was only for a period of around 5 minutes because a traitor was trying to break in and subvert me. The traitor in question was the same person who I had locked into maintenance for killing the clown, so I knew for certain they were an antag. They were cloned and brought back and immediatly went to my upload for revenge) I had electrified the doors behind them once they were already in my upload area. I had the turrets on stun but they kept turning them off. I eventually escalated to lethals because they had reached the glass by my core and were not attempting to leave. They were simply being stunned and walking back and forth. I would argue this is rule 2, where I am defending myself against someone who is obviously an antagonist attempting to kidnap my core. (I ended up turning lethals off when backup arrived and they dragged the antag away) I mean I can see how this was against rule 1. I think someone in a hardsuit tried to break in around the same time and got hit with 1 of the lasers inadvertently. If I had electrified the EVA storage I must have forgotten to turn it off when attempting to stop someone from escaping the law. I'm sorry about that I would have turned it off if I was reminded.

Sorry this was sort of a long post, but I have to be very detailed here because the admin says they were not present during the incident. I definitely understand a job ban from AI, I'm sorry. I sorta panicked when the antag broke into my control room and ended up turning on lethals and electrifying AI access so they could not leave and noone else could break in until backup arrived. I don't think I deserve a perma though honestly. I never grief on the server and this is the first incident with an admin ever for me. Please remove the permanent ban.

Thanks for your time,
Verrill
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#2
Hi, thanks for the detailed explanation, and I'm sorry for the late response! Basically, even if you think someone is an antagonist, you still shouldn't harm them as long as law 1 is still intact, for antagonists are still human (unless you witness them doing nonhuman acts - a ling absorbing someone, for example). That means you shouldn't be electrifying doors or setting your turrets to lethal. Does that make sense?

Additionally, even if you think someone is an antagonist, that doesn't mean you're totally free to disregard all their orders. Sure, ignore the guy who's been csabering people to death when they ask you to let them into a room where someone is hiding. But when someone asks you to let them out of a dangerous location, you shouldn't just trap them in. One of the people you were calling an antagonist and ignored (and locked into toxins) was just a normal player - normal players are totally free to make bombs and it's not something that only antagonists can do. 

Also, just a clarification, but "wasn't on when this was brought to admin attention" moreso means that you weren't on, and so I couldn't talk to you about this. The permanent ban, really, is just a way to ensure that we can have this conversation. Your actions by themselves definitely don't warrant an actual permaban! Sorry if that's confusing.
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#3
I understand. I assumed that rule 1 implies I could detain based on probable cause sort of like a police officer, to prevent harm to the rest of the crew before it occurs. But I'm not allowed to detain unless it is intervening in a crime already in progress? This seems like a really fine line, I guess I wasn't ready to make the jump to AI like I thought I was. What exactly are you supposed to when a criminal is moving from point A to B and the pursuit is slow. Am I allowed to close doors in front of them, but I have to open them when they ask?
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#4
In your case specifically, you were causing a human to come to harm by bolting them into toxins. You assumed that they were an antagonist, but they weren't, and bolted the door and refused to open it for them even though they told you that they were going to melt (which was true; it's not like they made up a silly reason). If law 1 is intact, you shouldn't break it. You shouldn't cause a human to come to harm just because you think they might be a bad person and cause other humans to come to harm.

In general, law 1 does not imply you can detain people if you think they might be an antag or might harm others. Inaction, in general, is fine, unless of course you're ordered to take action. Though, if someone's already harmed people and you have very good evidence that they're going to harm more (see: the csaber example), then you might be able to detain someone and ignore their commands "for the greater good". But as mentioned before, you still can't cause that human to come to harm in order to prevent other humans from coming to harm (e.g. locking them into a hot room and refusing to let them out).

Anyways, yeah. I've unbanned you, please have fun and stay out of trouble! If you need any clarification on the rules, feel free to ahelp.
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