Poll: What do you think of staggering?
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'Staggered' discussion & feedback
#1
Question 
I just added a 'staggered' status effect, which is caused by either giving or receiving melee hits. It lasts 5 seconds, and has two effects - it slows slightly, and prevents sprinting. The idea is to improve melee combat with weapons that don't stun. Before this change, you could hit someone once, then an unwilling target would simply sprint away and yell for help. Now, once you get a hit in, you have 5 seconds to hit again and continue the combat. If your opponent dodges your hits for 5 seconds, they can escape as before, but they can't just hold shift and vanish into the distance any more. As both parties are affected, neither should get an advantage in the combat.

This will probably need tweaking, and may even be removed if it turns out to be awful and not fun. Let me know what you think!
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#2
In my opinion, this just makes it more difficult to escape melee combat when it's already pretty difficult if you're caught off guard, are stunned by a plate/chute/shove/etc., affected by chems, already injured (which has a separate slowdown that currently stacks)... At the very least, the target should be able to trade some stamina and sprint away. Additionally, five seconds is a long time when you're fighting someone else, and the staggered effect is pretty noticeable.

Also, I like being able to run away and yell for help. Even before this change, it's still pretty easy to keep someone down if you get the first hit and plan things out, and this change just gives the attacker even more of an edge. If the purpose of this is to encourage less reliance on stun weapons, then I think we should just make stun weapons less outright powerful.
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#3
(10-02-2018, 05:08 PM)Flourish Wrote: In my opinion, this just makes it more difficult to escape melee combat when it's already pretty difficult if you're caught off guard, are stunned by a plate/chute/shove/etc., affected by chems, already injured (which has a separate slowdown that currently stacks)... At the very least, the target should be able to trade some stamina and sprint away. Additionally, five seconds is a long time when you're fighting someone else, and the staggered effect is pretty noticeable.

Also, I like being able to run away and yell for help. Even before this change, it's still pretty easy to keep someone down if you get the first hit and plan things out, and this change just gives the attacker even more of an edge. If the purpose of this is to encourage less reliance on stun weapons, then I think we should just make stun weapons less outright powerful.

Actually during the testing on #2, single punches weren't that big a difference (and IM told me that doing 2 or more wouldn't make any more difference) The stagger slow was rather negligible. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is up to the coders.
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#4
(10-02-2018, 05:09 PM)MrMagolor Wrote:
(10-02-2018, 05:08 PM)Flourish Wrote: In my opinion, this just makes it more difficult to escape melee combat when it's already pretty difficult if you're caught off guard, are stunned by a plate/chute/shove/etc., affected by chems, already injured (which has a separate slowdown that currently stacks)... At the very least, the target should be able to trade some stamina and sprint away. Additionally, five seconds is a long time when you're fighting someone else, and the staggered effect is pretty noticeable.

Also, I like being able to run away and yell for help. Even before this change, it's still pretty easy to keep someone down if you get the first hit and plan things out, and this change just gives the attacker even more of an edge. If the purpose of this is to encourage less reliance on stun weapons, then I think we should just make stun weapons less outright powerful.

Actually during the testing on #2, single punches weren't that big a difference (and IM told me that doing 2 or more wouldn't make any more difference) The stagger slow was rather negligible. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is up to the coders.

It's pretty noticeable now. The effect is capped at five seconds, so if you keep punching someone (or getting hit), you keep bringing it up to five.
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#5
The thing about 'both parties being affected' is that the aggressor doesn't want or need to move any significant distance - they just need to keep up their assault. Moving around in a fight is only done once both are on even footing, or by the person trying to run away. It encourages people to escalate every single fistfight into a lethal battle, because now that running away is not an option, your only other alternative.is punching back and hoping RNG is in your favor
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#6
Can't really comment because a) I haven't tested it, and b) I suck at combat anyways, but:

I feel stun is OP and is deserving of a nerf or reworking.


This sounds like it gives unarmed victims 2 options: 1) Rush out a help message and die or, 2) Try to fight back and die.
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#7
I have not tested this out either but it sounds like another buff to Stuns which is not needed at all. I think stuns and chems are OP. I really like MBC's combat changes cause it adds more to the combat other then increasing the need for stuns or chems.

More than likely it can be changed to fit together well with everything else. If I can find the time to get some games in I'll give you more substantial feedback. I just wanted to come in and say that things like chems and stuns don't need anymore buffs.

I don't want combat to be anymore of a stun and chemfest then it already is and not being able to call for help or run away from a fight when you earn the chance to is unfun and punishes players who are good enough to get the chance to run or call for help. Reminds me of the time tasers and batons were buffed to the point where if hit by one bolt from a Taser you could not move, speak clearly or defend yourself.

Either way at least it's not the RNG combat of the old days. Yeesh.
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#8
The root of the problem is that movement is far too fast now to actually hit someone in melee if they are actively evading you. You get one hit when they aren't expecting it, then they just run around in circles or directly away. This is why stun weapons are so strong - they hold the person still and make it possible to get more than one hit in. In my opinion, melee combat should not be purely based on finding and using a stun weapon to the exclusion of everything else.

In the past, there was so much lag that it was possible to hit people even when they were trying to escape, and if you were skilful enough, you could incapacitate someone with just a toolbox. Now, any combat involving a non-stun weapon used on an unwilling target that isn't slowed will almost invariably end in their escape. The result is that antagonists are forced to either steal a stun weapon or buy a traitor item. Non-antagonists faced with a well-armed opponent are also helpless - their only option is to run away and call for help. It used to be that someone with an oxygen tank had a decent chance against even a wizard or changeling provided they were accurate and good at dodging. In fact, I have a distinct memory of being cluwned then getting my revenge and killing the wizard with an oxygen tank a couple of minutes later. That would be next to impossible now, since the wizard can just dodge endlessly and wait for their spells to recharge. Nobody has fond memories of running away from a bad guy and calling for security, because it's boring. Nobody likes trying to attack someone only for them to vanish off screen in under a second and call down half the station to lynch the attacker, either.

Another way to deal with this would be to reduce movement speed overall, but that would be a very unpopular change.

(10-02-2018, 05:08 PM)Flourish Wrote: In my opinion, this just makes it more difficult to escape melee combat when it's already pretty difficult if you're caught off guard, are stunned by a plate/chute/shove/etc., affected by chems, already injured (which has a separate slowdown that currently stacks)... At the very least, the target should be able to trade some stamina and sprint away. Additionally, five seconds is a long time when you're fighting someone else, and the staggered effect is pretty noticeable.

Also, I like being able to run away and yell for help. Even before this change, it's still pretty easy to keep someone down if you get the first hit and plan things out, and this change just gives the attacker even more of an edge. If the purpose of this is to encourage less reliance on stun weapons, then I think we should just make stun weapons less outright powerful.
You may be right about allowing sprinting. However, I totally disagree that keeping someone down without a stun weapon is easy. You get one hit, then they endlessly dodge and run away. Nerfing stun weapons would just make it even harder to kill someone using melee, and guns would be the only viable weapon choice. If guns were nerfed too, then combat wouldn't be practical at all - anyone who didn't feel like fighting could just run away.

(10-02-2018, 05:49 PM)Roomba Wrote: The thing about 'both parties being affected' is that the aggressor doesn't want or need to move any significant distance - they just need to keep up their assault. Moving around in a fight is only done once both are on even footing, or by the person trying to run away. It encourages people to escalate every single fistfight into a lethal battle, because now that running away is not an option, your only other alternative.is punching back and hoping RNG is in your favor
(10-02-2018, 07:49 PM)Vitatroll Wrote: Can't really comment because a) I haven't tested it, and b) I suck at combat anyways, but:

I feel stun is OP and is deserving of a nerf or reworking.


This sounds like it gives unarmed victims 2 options: 1) Rush out a help message and die or, 2) Try to fight back and die.
Or you can just dodge for 5 seconds then run.

(10-03-2018, 03:16 AM)Ed Venture Wrote: I have not tested this out either but it sounds like another buff to Stuns which is not needed at all. I think stuns and chems are OP. I really like MBC's combat changes cause it adds more to the combat other then increasing the need for stuns or chems.

More than likely it can be changed to fit together well with everything else. If I can find the time to get some games in I'll give you more substantial feedback. I just wanted to come in and say that things like chems and stuns don't need anymore buffs.

I don't want combat to be anymore of a stun and chemfest then it already is and not being able to call for help or run away from a fight when you earn the chance to is unfun and punishes players who are good enough to get the chance to run or call for help. Reminds me of the time tasers and batons were buffed to the point where if hit by one bolt from a Taser you could not move, speak clearly or defend yourself.

Either way at least it's not the RNG combat of the old days. Yeesh.
It's the opposite of a buff to stuns. It's specifically a buff to non-stun weapons, since stun weapons already have a much more powerful effect than staggering which overrides it (being slowed is irrelevant if you're also stunned).
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#9
The main thing I was trying to get at was it reminded me of that old taser and baton buff but with melee. But you explained that this change was made to enhance combat enough so those stun weapons are not 100% needed which I am completely in support of.

As you explained it’s the complete opposite of a stun buff. Sorry for the assumptions I made.

Thanks for going in great detail about this change and why you made it. Extremely optimistic about this change now. Since it’s addressing one of the biggest issues I’ve had with combat for years now.
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#10
(10-02-2018, 05:11 PM)Flourish Wrote:
(10-02-2018, 05:09 PM)MrMagolor Wrote:
(10-02-2018, 05:08 PM)Flourish Wrote: In my opinion, this just makes it more difficult to escape melee combat when it's already pretty difficult if you're caught off guard, are stunned by a plate/chute/shove/etc., affected by chems, already injured (which has a separate slowdown that currently stacks)... At the very least, the target should be able to trade some stamina and sprint away. Additionally, five seconds is a long time when you're fighting someone else, and the staggered effect is pretty noticeable.

Also, I like being able to run away and yell for help. Even before this change, it's still pretty easy to keep someone down if you get the first hit and plan things out, and this change just gives the attacker even more of an edge. If the purpose of this is to encourage less reliance on stun weapons, then I think we should just make stun weapons less outright powerful.

Actually during the testing on #2, single punches weren't that big a difference (and IM told me that doing 2 or more wouldn't make any more difference) The stagger slow was rather negligible. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is up to the coders.

It's pretty noticeable now. The effect is capped at five seconds, so if you keep punching someone (or getting hit), you keep bringing it up to five.
the time is one thing, but the actual stagger doesn't decrease your speed by much.
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#11
Most stuns should be varying degrees of this stagger thing. Falling asleep and dying isn't my idea of an engaging fight, so I think this is a step in the right direction.
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#12
Throwing a knife pie (and presumably any other pie containing a weapon) will causes the stagger effect regardless of distance
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#13
Has this been balanced against some of the antags and mobs? There are a few mobs who are one hit stun and kills, and not being able to sprint away from them seems like it would really put the fight in their favor.

I need more time with it, but I think maybe the attacker should be staggered less if they hit their target? Like maybe only 3 seconds instead of 5?

Actually, I had a good chase with the clown and I gotta say it feels pretty nice for one on one so far
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#14
Yeah, it's good after trying it out. Granted I just punched/got punched by a monkey. Overall I like it better this way.

I still don't get your arguments, though. This is just a boost for antags and vigilantes, both of which are already armed to the teeth. The reason stuns are popular is because they're OP. They still are. They're still preferable.

Regardless, I'm very grateful that balance is being looked into. It's not the most fun thing to address.
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#15
(10-03-2018, 10:23 AM)MrMagolor Wrote: the time is one thing, but the actual stagger doesn't decrease your speed by much.

We can agree to disagree.

(10-03-2018, 05:25 PM)Superlagg Wrote: Most stuns should be varying degrees of this stagger thing.

This is a good idea and I agree with it.

(10-03-2018, 05:24 AM)Infinite Monkeys Wrote: You may be right about allowing sprinting. However, I totally disagree that keeping someone down without a stun weapon is easy. You get one hit, then they endlessly dodge and run away. Nerfing stun weapons would just make it even harder to kill someone using melee, and guns would be the only viable weapon choice. If guns were nerfed too, then combat wouldn't be practical at all - anyone who didn't feel like fighting could just run away.

If you plan things out, or catch someone when they're distracted, it's definitely not just going to be dodge-and-run-away. I don't think people should be able to incur a movement disadvantage to whoever they're trying to murder if they simply run up to them in the middle of an open hallway and whack them with a fire extinguisher. 

You're right that nerfing stun weapons might make it harder to kill someone using melee, but I think it then also encourages using other kinds of weapons, and makes the game more balanced in terms of combat, since stuns are so powerful. On the other hand, of course, that would also mean rebalancing a bunch of antags, like wizard, werewolf, and changeling, where stuns are often key to their capture.
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