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Staff complaint: flourish, LLJK2, 7/31/2018
#1
Admin name: flourish

Server: LLJK2

Date/Time: 7/31/2018, around 3:00?

Synopsis: I was banned for saying "I did nothing wrong, just like Stalin" in OOC. In the rules, at least on the wiki, it says that the only type of speech that is expressly forbidden is bigotry and sexual content, and the phrase "I did nothing wrong, just like Stalin" isn't explicitly bigoted. Admittedly, I did get in trouble the previous round for critting someone who was trying to gib a person and trespassing with the help of the bartender. It's possible that flourish is biased against me or has favoritism for Horse Horsington, just throwing it out there. 

Extra Information: Also, I mostly made this thread to complain about the really PC culture on the server that's pretty infamous on this server. I've gotten notes in the past for saying "i have space autism" and calling a security "mega gay," and even just saying the word "sperg." I get that you don't want ABSOLUTE freedom of speech, allowing people to say the n-word and joke about the holocaust attracts/creates a pretty toxic playerbase, but obviously harmless jokes should just be let go. Goonstation is pretty infamous for this type of stuff in the SS13 community, and I think it would change goon for the better if you guys changed it.

And before you say "If you don't like the culture, don't play here" I'm just making an honest suggestion that would hopefully better the station.

P.S. I was going to put the second half of this stuff in suggestions, but I saw it was mostly for coders and that kinda stuff, so I thought it would be more appropriate if I put it here

P.P.S. I love goon a lot, truly the most advanced code in Space Station 13. You have amazing coders, never forget it <3
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#2
Flourish isn't biased against you or towards Horse Horsington, by my view of it.

Anyway as to the PC Culture on our server: I don't think, even if we weren't PC culture, that people would particularly want to hear someone talk about Stalin or whatever while they're playing a game. Complaints like these prove how good a rule it is, since it keeps the station chill - basically that's my view of it.

Regardless, Flourish did - ha ha - nothing wrong.
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#3
Here's your exact ban reason:

Quote:Banned by flourish, reason: [Peter Petrograd (Datmanisdumb): OOC: I did nothing wrong, just like Stalin] You've been talked to multiple times about your language already. This combined with the fact that you already broke the rules earlier that round by beating a guy to death just because you thought they might be a traitor, I think warrants a short ban. Please take the time off to think about your actions and reread the rules., duration: 1.5 Days

You also have a history of breaking the rules with your language and lethal escalation with other players.

You say that you get that we don't want people to joke about the Holocaust, but joking about Stalin and saying that he did nothing wrong isn't that much better. Saying that combined with your previous actions that same round made a short ban feel warranted. Other admins are free to chime in with their own opinions.
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#4
I don't really have much to say about this ban honestly, you were warned to not do something and then received a short ban when you continued to do the thing. Still, it's good that players feel like they can post complaints because it gives us a really good platform to explain the rules we have and why we think they benefit us.

And with that in mind I'll move on to your suggestion!

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the wider ss13 community that dislike our rules because they don't let them say what they'd like to or they think it stifles their creativity or whatever. But really, we're just trying to create a fun and welcoming environment for our players in the one place we have some control over. I sincerely feel that being able to call people slurs would add nothing to the game and as you've said in your post, players who disagree are absolutely welcome to try the many other flavours of ss13 that exist these days.

We're not really trying to change people, I'm sure we have players who don't follow the rules of our server when they're not playing here, but that's not what's important. We just want there to be a base level of behavior while you're here. If you can manage that, you're more than welcome and we're happy to have you!

I'm not sure what else to tell you other than I can't imagine we're going to be changing our rules any-time soon. Hope this helps!
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#5
(07-31-2018, 02:53 PM)Flourish Wrote: Here's your exact ban reason:

Quote:Banned by flourish, reason: [Peter Petrograd (Datmanisdumb): OOC: I did nothing wrong, just like Stalin] You've been talked to multiple times about your language already. This combined with the fact that you already broke the rules earlier that round by beating a guy to death just because you thought they might be a traitor, I think warrants a short ban. Please take the time off to think about your actions and reread the rules., duration: 1.5 Days

You also have a history of breaking the rules with your language and lethal escalation with other players.

You say that you get that we don't want people to joke about the Holocaust, but joking about Stalin and saying that he did nothing wrong isn't that much better. Saying that combined with your previous actions that same round made a short ban feel warranted. Other admins are free to chime in with their own opinions.

I had one other example of "escalating to lethal with other players," so not much of a history.

Also you're being kind of disingenuous when you say joking about Stalin isn't much better. Stalin doesn't have nearly as much of a stigma as, say, a certain other leader of a certain other country during WW2. Stalin obviously did do stuff wrong, but that makes the joke funny.
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#6
(07-31-2018, 03:08 PM)Datmanisdumb Wrote: Also you're being kind of disingenuous when you say joking about Stalin isn't much better. Stalin doesn't have nearly as much of a stigma as, say, a certain other leader of a certain other country during WW2. Stalin obviously did do stuff wrong, but that makes the joke funny.

Can you do me a favor, Datmanisdumb, can you please not argue this for an SS13 unban forum? Thank you.
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#7
(07-31-2018, 03:05 PM)Gannets Wrote: I don't really have much to say about this ban honestly, you were warned to not do something and then received a short ban when you continued to do the thing. Still, it's good that players feel like they can post complaints because it gives us a really good platform to explain the rules we have and why we think they benefit us.

And with that in mind I'll move on to your suggestion!

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the wider ss13 community that dislike our rules because they don't let them say what they'd like to or they think it stifles their creativity or whatever. But really, we're just trying to create a fun and welcoming environment for our players in the one place we have some control over. I sincerely feel that being able to call people slurs would add nothing to the game and as you've said in your post, players who disagree are absolutely welcome to try the many other flavours of ss13 that exist these days.

We're not really trying to change people, I'm sure we have players who don't follow the rules of our server when they're not playing here, but that's not what's important. We just want there to be a base level of behavior while you're here. If you can manage that, you're more than welcome and we're happy to have you!

I'm not sure what else to tell you other than I can't imagine we're going to be changing our rules any-time soon. Hope this helps!

You see, the biggest problem with creating a welcoming environment is that when you try to create one for 'all' you are really just creating one for a small minority of people that can't take a joke. The majority of people couldn't care less if I joke about Stalin or autism, it's just an incredibly small minority of people have a problem with it. Also, it creates a player base that is more concerned with trying to be PC and not getting a note/ban than actually playing the game and having genuine fun. And if a small minority of people can't take a joke, maybe they have some deep-seated problem that have to get looked into.
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#8
(07-31-2018, 03:05 PM)Gannets Wrote: I don't really have much to say about this ban honestly, you were warned to not do something and then received a short ban when you continued to do the thing. Still, it's good that players feel like they can post complaints because it gives us a really good platform to explain the rules we have and why we think they benefit us.

And with that in mind I'll move on to your suggestion!

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the wider ss13 community that dislike our rules because they don't let them say what they'd like to or they think it stifles their creativity or whatever. But really, we're just trying to create a fun and welcoming environment for our players in the one place we have some control over. I sincerely feel that being able to call people slurs would add nothing to the game and as you've said in your post, players who disagree are absolutely welcome to try the many other flavours of ss13 that exist these days.

We're not really trying to change people, I'm sure we have players who don't follow the rules of our server when they're not playing here, but that's not what's important. We just want there to be a base level of behavior while you're here. If you can manage that, you're more than welcome and we're happy to have you!

I'm not sure what else to tell you other than I can't imagine we're going to be changing our rules any-time soon. Hope this helps!

You see, the biggest problem with creating a welcoming environment is that when you try to create one for 'all' you are really just creating one for a small minority of people that can't take a joke. The majority of people couldn't care less if I joke about Stalin or autism, it's just an incredibly small minority of people have a problem with it. Also, it creates a player base that is more concerned with trying to be PC and not getting a note/ban than actually playing the game and having genuine fun. And if a small minority of people can't take a joke, maybe they have some deep-seated problem that have to get looked into.

(07-31-2018, 03:17 PM)Huff H Law Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 03:08 PM)Datmanisdumb Wrote: Also you're being kind of disingenuous when you say joking about Stalin isn't much better. Stalin doesn't have nearly as much of a stigma as, say, a certain other leader of a certain other country during WW2. Stalin obviously did do stuff wrong, but that makes the joke funny.

Can you do me a favor, Datmanisdumb, can you please not argue this for an SS13 unban forum? Thank you.

I don't care about getting unbanned, it's only for a day
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#9
I tell socially unacceptable jokes with my close friends all the time. Difference between that and this is that my jokes are actually funny.

I'm also able to not tell those jokes whilst I'm playing on the server and still have a good time. Although after reading your numerous posts I'm no longer sure how I could possibly manage that since I should be too focused on not being a horrible bigot the whole time I'm playing.
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#10
(07-31-2018, 03:08 PM)Datmanisdumb Wrote: I had one other example of "escalating to lethal with other players," so not much of a history.

That is still a history. That + your other notes + your actions and language that round make your 1.5 day justified, in my opinion.

(07-31-2018, 03:08 PM)Datmanisdumb Wrote: Also you're being kind of disingenuous when you say joking about Stalin isn't much better. Stalin doesn't have nearly as much of a stigma as, say, a certain other leader of a certain other country during WW2. Stalin obviously did do stuff wrong, but that makes the joke funny.

I am being totally serious. You should not be joking that Hitler or Stalin or Mao or some other notorious historical figure did nothing wrong on here.

To recap: I didn't ban you solely for saying that you did nothing wrong like Stalin. I banned you because you said that and you had already broken the rules earlier (by beating a guy to death, because you thought they were a traitor, for trespassing + trying to gib a corpse), and you had notes regarding similar things.
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#11
The issue is that we didn't write our rules with the majority of people in mind. We wrote the rules with the specific intent to make sure everybody can have as good a time as we can manage. You not being allowed to call people slurs, whether or not you think they are slurs, or compare yourself to Stalin might make you a little unhappy, but a player who happens to be dealing with asperger syndrome, or happens to be a transperson, or happens to be gay, or i don't know maybe their grandfather died in political purges - it can make them feel really unwelcome and like they aren't seen as as much of a person as people who aren't dealing with those issues. In the grand scheme of things, we'd rather you be asked to deal with keeping your communication in check than that they be asked to deal with their validity as a person being called into question.

In a way, I sort of hope this makes no sense to you. I hope you don't have anything you're dealing with in your life that can make you feel less valued because someone said an internet word at you. But the majority of our playerbase (when the rules were rewritten to codify our stance against all forms of bigoted speech, it was with the active input and enthusiastic agreement of our players) either DOES have issues like that to deal with, or knows someone that does, or otherwise feels compassion with folks in that role, so they're very willing to make that extremely small adjustment to their behavior to avoid making someone feel like crap because of who they are.

If it DOES make sense to you, then obviously that's fine too. I hope nobody makes you feel rotten about yourself. All we ask is that you follow our rules so you don't make anyone else feel rotten about themselves whether you intended it or not.
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#12
(07-31-2018, 03:20 PM)Datmanisdumb Wrote: You see, the biggest problem with creating a welcoming environment is that when you try to create one for 'all' you are really just creating one for a small minority of people that can't take a joke. The majority of people couldn't care less if I joke about Stalin or autism, it's just an incredibly small minority of people have a problem with it. Also, it creates a player base that is more concerned with trying to be PC and not getting a note/ban than actually playing the game and having genuine fun. And if a small minority of people can't take a joke, maybe they have some deep-seated problem that have to get looked into.

Creating rules that prohibit the use of slurs or bigoted language does not create a server for a minority of people, it simply asks that when you join the server you don't use that kind of language. What is does accomplish however, is creating a more welcoming server for people from every walk of life. The rules simply prohibit you from using a few words, and creates a far more comfortable experience for everyone, I'd say that's worthwhile.

As for creating a player base that is concerned about their language, I bet if you asked any number of players what their first concern when they're playing is, it wouldn't be the language they use. The vast majority of players are able to moderate what they say, and simply not use slurs on the server. Sure some people require a reminder, but there's rarely ever repeats, as they can also respect the rule. If you physically cannot avoid using slurs, and it's your primary concern when playing on goon then I would simply say it might not be server for you.
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#13
I think it's great that we can talk about this without punishing you for questioning our way of doing things, I also think our way of doing things works about as well as it can and we won't be changing it.
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