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Most secret chems shouldn't be secret.
#1
If this thread feels too dumb or pointless or unneeded please feel free to rip my mouth off or something,  however i feel keeping chems that aren't stuff like QGP/fermids/anima/nitro secret is absolutely dumb and pointless, most of these chems are just gimmick chems, like rotting or hootagen, or death chems, like the initro triad, that can be beat in deadliness with black powder/clf pills, and revealing them won't cause that much trouble.

Thoughts?
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#2
i'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a moment and say that i'm in favor of secret recipes!
why, you might ask? well, i'm gonna break out the metaphor machine and tell you. there's this tiny, obscure game called Furi, where you play as a ninja who's trying to escape from a superprison. the game is set up so you fight a boss, and then fight another boss. most of the fun i have in that game is throwing myself at a boss over and over and over again until it all clicks and i can kill it! that's what happens with secret recipes, i think. you try for a few rounds to make this chemical and when it finally clicks and you make it, you get the double satisfaction bomb of having access to a cool chemical and knowing that it all happened because you threw yourself at it until it worked. that feeling of satisfaction is why i say that we shouldn't declassify any secret chemicals.
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#3
(06-24-2018, 11:12 AM)Wraithcraft Wrote: i'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a moment and say that i'm in favor of secret recipes!
why, you might ask? well, i'm gonna break out the metaphor machine and tell you. there's this tiny, obscure game called Furi, where you play as a ninja who's trying to escape from a superprison. the game is set up so you fight a boss, and then fight another boss. most of the fun i have in that game is throwing myself at a boss over and over and over again until it all clicks and i can kill it! that's what happens with secret recipes, i think. you try for a few rounds to make this chemical and when it finally clicks and you make it, you get the double satisfaction bomb of having access to a cool chemical and knowing that it all happened because you threw yourself at it until it worked. that feeling of satisfaction is why i say that we shouldn't declassify any secret chemicals.

If that feeling of satisfaction is important to you there are ways of preserving it like keeping secret chem recipes under spoilers on the wiki. And i'm not saying we should reveal every secret chem recipe, i'm in favor of nitro staying secret, for example.
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#4
Dangerous chems should be balanced regardless of secrecy. No more NI3, pls. That's basically it for me.

The other chems are just turbonerd bait. They don't really affect the round. They're mostly only neat because they're rarely used. When somebody does use them, it's usually just to show off that they can. I don't really care about em' because of that.
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#5
hi, yes, I am of the personal opinion that anima, QGP, and glowing fliptonium should be the only true "secrets."

that is all.


Edit: I retract my statement because it was DUMB in hindsight
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#6
Personally I'm for the secret chems staying secret as they are. We've seen what people do with shit like Stable Mutagen, if chems like ageinium or rotting were just out there on the wiki, you'd see way more rounds of folks turning skeletons or folks repeatedly making screams 'hilariously' long/slow just because they can.

In my eyes, it's not just physically dangerous chems that should stay hidden, but chems that generally fuck with folks, even if it's more just an annoyance. My request is keep it the way it is.
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#7
(06-24-2018, 11:16 AM)fosstar Wrote:
(06-24-2018, 11:12 AM)Wraithcraft Wrote: i'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a moment and say that i'm in favor of secret recipes!
why, you might ask? well, i'm gonna break out the metaphor machine and tell you. there's this tiny, obscure game called Furi, where you play as a ninja who's trying to escape from a superprison. the game is set up so you fight a boss, and then fight another boss. most of the fun i have in that game is throwing myself at a boss over and over and over again until it all clicks and i can kill it! that's what happens with secret recipes, i think. you try for a few rounds to make this chemical and when it finally clicks and you make it, you get the double satisfaction bomb of having access to a cool chemical and knowing that it all happened because you threw yourself at it until it worked. that feeling of satisfaction is why i say that we shouldn't declassify any secret chemicals.

If that feeling of satisfaction is important to you there are ways of preserving it like keeping secret chem recipes under spoilers on the wiki. And i'm not saying we should reveal every secret chem recipe, i'm in favor of nitro staying secret, for example.
oh shoot, i also didnt cover that a lot of them are secret for a reason. rotting can make you uncloneable, royal initro gibs your body, so does unstable hootagen, so does feather fluid, so does dragon's breath, etc. what ones don't make you nearly impossible to kill or make a body uncloneable have some effect that you'd want to get after earning it, right? i don't think ageinium would be nearly as fun if every round there were people running around with foghorn screams or anything. just so many of those chems can ruin someone's enjoyment of a round in tons of ways, and i think the admins do take that into consideration when making a chemical secret.
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#8
(06-24-2018, 11:26 AM)Wraithcraft Wrote:
(06-24-2018, 11:16 AM)fosstar Wrote:
(06-24-2018, 11:12 AM)Wraithcraft Wrote: i'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a moment and say that i'm in favor of secret recipes!
why, you might ask? well, i'm gonna break out the metaphor machine and tell you. there's this tiny, obscure game called Furi, where you play as a ninja who's trying to escape from a superprison. the game is set up so you fight a boss, and then fight another boss. most of the fun i have in that game is throwing myself at a boss over and over and over again until it all clicks and i can kill it! that's what happens with secret recipes, i think. you try for a few rounds to make this chemical and when it finally clicks and you make it, you get the double satisfaction bomb of having access to a cool chemical and knowing that it all happened because you threw yourself at it until it worked. that feeling of satisfaction is why i say that we shouldn't declassify any secret chemicals.

If that feeling of satisfaction is important to you there are ways of preserving it like keeping secret chem recipes under spoilers on the wiki. And i'm not saying we should reveal every secret chem recipe, i'm in favor of nitro staying secret, for example.
oh shoot, i also didnt cover that a lot of them are secret for a reason. rotting can make you uncloneable, royal initro gibs your body, so does unstable hootagen, so does feather fluid, so does dragon's breath, etc. what ones don't make you nearly impossible to kill or make a body uncloneable have some effect that you'd want to get after earning it, right? i don't think ageinium would be nearly as fun if every round there were people running around with foghorn screams or anything. just so many of those chems can ruin someone's enjoyment of a round in tons of ways, and i think the admins do take that into consideration when making a chemical secret.

I understand where you're coming from however many chems that aren't secret can make your round hell, Black Powder mixed with clf3 can gib people done correctly, a 100 unit pill of Neurotoxin can throw you out of the round for a crippingly long amount of time. Lots of chems can fuck you up worse then secret chems, plus if unclonable is what we're going for there are many airlocks on the station that can act as a "you'll never find the body" airlock, plus the gibber and crusher.
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#9
(06-24-2018, 11:20 AM)Vitatroll Wrote: Dangerous chems should be balanced regardless of secrecy. No more NI3, pls. That's basically it for me.

I think Vitatroll has the right idea here regarding the balance factor.
One option for making secret chems 'less secret' could be allowing you to 'reverse-engineer' samples found in artbeakers for more detailed hints, spend spacebux for a note with a clue, rare half-burnt piles of notes in Z5, etc. That way the chems won't become instantly available to everyone, but it means that you have a hope to learn the  recipes without turbonerding away in chem for hours.
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#10
I think having hints to a few recipes hidden in adventure zones could be a cool thing


Personally I don't know enough about real chemistry to figure out most recipes other than by guess and check....and there's plenty of much easier ways to kill as others have mentioned. Why bother making nerd chems if I can just sleepy pen you with straight acids or phlog and thermite critting you instantly. Heck even a prions scalpel is basically a death sentence
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#11
I don't know chemistry well, and probably never will. I don't think there's anything wrong with mechanics that requires multiple rounds to figure out either.

The only thing I don't like about the secrecy is it requires players to self govern, and can easily be broken by someone sharing the secrets, like when the code was stolen

I think a system that was semi random and required a bit of testing each round would be better, but I don't feel particularly strong about it
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#12
i gotta agree, i don't like gatekeeping very much, especially if it's to keep harmless chems like super msg or rotting secret
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#13
I have a very biased opinion here because of my history but secret chems and chem hunting are a big part of the chemistry gameplay loop. I find the hunt for secret chems very fun and rewarding. I understand that not everybody finds that fun but that just means that chemistry isn't for them. People always call it gatekeeping or unfair that chemicals are secret but honestly I don't see why it matters. If that gameplay isn't for you then it isn't for you. I really don't see what people are missing out on because they don't know how to make some chemicals.
Poisons tend to be the go-to for this argument but there really isn't much more that you can do with death chemicals that you can't do with a bat and a pipebomb. Honestly if you get some mad scientists to weigh in here they'll tell you that while death chems are very flashy or impressive you don't tend to get away with doing as much with them as you'd think, bar the creative few. Hell most of the effective death chems that you can reasonably make in a capacity to do anything with are pretty common knowledge.
As for the gimmicky ones... well they're gimmicks. Who cares. The gimmicky stuff you can do is the reward for finding them but otherwise who really cares.

The only real issue I can see with secret chems is some sort of elitism which if somebody is being elitist about secret chems push them over and fart on them. Hell I'll do it myself if I see somebody trying to be smug about their chemistry.

Also if you think secret chems are secret just to balance them you're wrong.
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#14
(06-25-2018, 02:50 PM)Readster Wrote: Also if you think secret chems are secret just to balance them you're wrong.
If that was aimed at me them you're wrong. About what I think, anyways.

NI3 was a completely in-lab chem. No need to leave. No limiter. Quick to make. You smoked it on the floor (near invisible) and it exploded when you stepped on it. Pre-explosion fix it just stunned you a little and made noise (IIRC). Post-explosion fix it blew off all your limbs and sent you straight into crit, and people did this round-after-round. Despite that, it took weeks to remove.

Pre-nerf nitrog was also in-lab and also quick to make. It was also very stable. It practically deleted somebody if you splashed some on them. It was also foamable, which while it was amazing, it also put QGP to shame. Not sure how long it took to nerf, as I took a good break around then.

Those are what I don't want. They were eventually fixed, but it's better to make sure they're remotely balanced (regardless of secrecy) before release. I say this as a no-lifer that figured out (or sleuthed) all the recipes pre-leak.
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#15
(06-25-2018, 02:50 PM)Readster Wrote: there really isn't much more that you can do with death chemicals that you can't do with a bat and a pipebomb.

bit odd to say this when you can't really nearly instakill people with a baseball bat or a pipebomb with no chance to fight back
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