Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it!

[Grayshift]

So what I'm hearing is you want driveby kidnappings back, but only when a sec officer is doing it to take someone to the brig!

Sorry, that was snarky, but I was annoyed by the implication that I haven't been following this thread.

But no, bringing back lightspeed kidnappings is not an acceptable trade for "sometimes sec officers get bumped or harassed when they're arresting two people at once."

[Ed Venture]

I feel bodies could be change to move just a tad higher. We are almost at the sweet spot for them in my opinion. Also sprinting drains stamina so fast that it's hardly makes a difference.

No. If you read the thread which is clear you have not done fully yet. Sorry, that was snarky of me but I've said quite the opposite at the start of this change and just a few post back within the hour and I'm annoyed by the implication that I am asking for something that I'm not asking for. In fact I've expressed that drive-by kidnappings being gone is a good thing! Also expressed that I don't want the change gone just vastly changed. I quite like Noah's patch/idea for it.

[ferriswheel1]

Also I've seen very little of belt hell being used since this change happen so again the only positive thing this change did was make instant kidnappings a thing of the past. But made everything else needlessly harder for no real reason.

If anything I hope you see that the backlash this idea has gotten is not because we hate change but is because you are trying to impose a certain playstyle on us.

I'd say that the under use of belthell is more to do with the fact that the docks are annoyingly out of the way, often right on the edge of the map. The quartermasters, the main users of belthell, have very little reason to send stuff across the station as there's few supplies departments actually need from QM.

EDIT: Also, did you know Ed, you can order additional port-a-brigs from the QM to arrest multiple people?

[Grayshift]

So we can take revert off the table, cool.

I have read the thread, not reread or memorized it. Twenty pages is too much to remember and why I only post rarely.

But if we were almost at the sweet spot in your opinion even before the variable slower lying down/quicker standing up pull speed for mobs was implemented, then I can't see how any "vast changes" could possibly be necessary.

[Musketman12]

This change in my opinion was completely worthless and no one asked for it in the first place, even if a minority supports it now.

1. The biggest reason I have seen pushed as to why this is a good change is to nerf "drive by" kidnappings, an issue I never really saw any contention over before and this really didn't stop it anyways. It's still super easy to just taser someone, take their headset and cuff them so I don't know how this is supposed to fix supposed drive by kidnappings that happened before.

2. Trying to force us to use the stations transport systems for no reason. The transport system has not been used any more since this change than it was before other than fucking throwing dead bodies into disposals because it's too annoying to drag their slow ass all the way to cloning. 

Also this slowdown stacks with other slowdowns that were already in the game so if there's a depressurized area and you're trying to pull someone away to safety or god forbid be damaged while dragging something you're pretty much fucked.

In all I still can't see how this change has benefited the game or the community in any way, the only thing i've seen happen is people being forced to play a certain way for reasons that barely had any consequence before and no one complained about.

Additionally like Ed said life as sec has been made more difficult (even if it's just a small amount), a job that almost no one plays anyways because it can be so soul crushing.

Edit: this took a bit to actually put my thoughts into a post so I may have missed a little bit of the discussion.

[Noah Buttes]

Grayshift, I'm going to write a big ol' effortpost response later. I don't have time to do that right now, but I wanted to let you know in advance so you could be prepared. For now, it'll suffice to say that I am very disappointed but not at all surprised.

Ed Venture, I don't mean to be rude, but you're kind of digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole. You're being careless and not thinking your responses through before posting them. Your thoughts and words are coming out as big jumbled messes, which reflects poorly upon both yourself and the others among us who also oppose this change. Please, slow down, take the time to compose your thoughts, and articulate your ideas in a more coherent and consistent manner.

[Ed Venture]

What's not consistent? I've been saying what I've been saying on repeat for months now. I don't know how else to express how else this change effects security and my annoyance over our feedback being ignored.

---

I've even went into great detail in the past months over everything this change effects security and again it was ignored or not even read. It's hard to tell at this point.

[Mordent]

Hi, I'm from the "I'm bored at work and wanted to waste my time here so you didn't have to" department. Ed's repeatedly said that people haven't been reading what he's been saying. To that end, I've dumped 10 minutes of my life and combed the thread and found two posts that he himself uses to sum up his thoughts.

*snip*

Here's are all my concerns just incase you have not read them.

The speed for dragging people has pretty dire implications for playing sec. And before anyone says anything, fuck the port-a-brig.

This is my main concern as I play nothing but Security. You can say use the port a brig but I still have to get them to a place so I can grab my PDA, Open the window, call the port-a-brig, throw them in it and lock it, then go back to my PDA and send it back. That can take more then a few seconds and alot can happen in a few seconds. Such a easy task has now been made considerably harder. If you are trying to give more reasons to not play security you are doing a great job at that.

I can live with this change the one good thing I can say about it is that it's going to make dealing with people who take the people you handcuff away easier to deal with. But it's also going to make the game slow to a crawl at some points and I don't think that's a good thing.

I won't lie. I think it's a bad change mainly cause I think it's going to make security needlessly harder and I believe the reasoning behind the change is a poor one with not that much thought going into it. Again the reason stated in the IRC was because no one uses other transportation items. That means they are not viable for most players and if the way to make them viable is to nerf every single player then I have to say it's bad as I don't believe forcing players to use things we never needed before is a good thing. Make things better so we want to use them without making somethings worse.

---

This also makes dragging people to safety alot harder as well. You can say it's harder for antags to drag people away as well, so it's balanced for both sides and your right, but for the most part the only antags that's going to be effected are Changelings and Vampires. Any other antag just kills on the spot. Getting people out of harm's way and saving them is always my top proity as a Security Officer which I feel is now unnecessarily harder to do. This will just encourage players to ignore dead bodies and injured players more so then they do now and encourage security to just hunt for antags instead of caring for the crew while trying to protect them.

Though since no one remembers to use the port-a-brig

I have mention my issues with the port-a-brig since this change multiple times in this thread and I believe Sundance has as well.

---

Here's most of  the issues with the port-a-brig posted in this thread.

The port-a-brig is often forgotten by a security officer AND god help anyone that has to arrest more then one person.

The speed for dragging people has pretty dire implications for playing sec. And before anyone says anything, fuck the port-a-brig.

This is my main concern as I play nothing but Security. You can say use the port a brig but I still have to get them to a place so I can grab my PDA, Open the window, call the port-a-brig, throw them in it and lock it, then go back to my PDA and send it back. That can take more then a few seconds and alot can happen in a few seconds. Such a easy task has now been made considerably harder. If you are trying to give more reasons to not play security you are doing a great job at that.

I agree that turbo pulling is heck annoying, but resolving it with port-a-whatevers isnt going to be enough and in the end I can imagine this just making medical and security grumpy. Ive made my suggestion regarding this already.

Also I've been using the port-a-brig religiously since we could summon it with the PDA.

---

Alternatively add a material to mining that's got antigravity properties and makes things floaty. Or people who swap their legs out with treads don't have to worry about this. Or get some highend wheelie cyberlegs or something. Be worthwhile to allow sec officers to start with sweet cyberlegs if this were the case.

I do like this idea though as it would give me more of a reason to enhance myself during a round.

If you feel I've misrepresented your two summary posts, please do speak up. As far as I can tell, it boils down to "I want to be able to get antags to the brig quickly and safely, the drag changes make this much harder; the port-a-brig isn't enough". A few of your other posts have talked about getting people out of hazardous areas, but the focus has always come back to brigging folks.

[Noah Buttes]

What's not consistent? I've been saying what I've been saying on repeat for months now. I don't know how else to express how else this change effects security and my annoyance over our feedback being ignored.

For one, your position on the port-a-brig.

Here's what you said earlier in the thread:

It's just too tedious to get people to Security now and if you bring up the port-a-brig then go read my past post on that as I already explain on how little it helps.

And here's what you said about it today:

But I guess the port-a-sec "not being enough" is just where we disagree, Ed. I love the dang thing and think it's great.

I love the thing as well and I use it all the god damn time, I feel I've shown that in game and said that more then enough in this very thread.

Please, just slow down.

[Ed Venture]

For the most part you got it down. I honestly don't know how else to show that this change has made security so hard to play for someone like me who's been playing the job non-stop for three years without recording all of my rounds and posting them on youtube, which is something I really want to do just to bring to light issues regarding how the community treats Security. Which is not possible with the toaster I have.

As a lone Security officer who has to deal with everything under the sun. Be it from boredom or a rampaging antag my number one goal as a officer has been the safety of the crew. The thing I saved people from the most before this change was exposed parts of the station caused by explosions. This is now a death sentence to try with this change as the slow down stacks with the cool down that space gives to the player. This was manageable before Winter Coats got nerfed (I get why they were nerfed don't worry)

Brigging people has always been a issue being that someone will run up and whisk away them at lightning speed. This is no longer an issue. But as grayshift will try and tell you it's a blessing and I thought it was to at first. He fails to see this just made those people change it up and they will just now chase you while you are slowed down and beat the shit out of you and steal your stuff. So you got two choices. Either stand you ground and hope they don't disarm you and try and stun all the attackers fast or let the person you arrest go and make a run for it. The port-a-brig is nice but it is hardly a solution to this long standing issue which I feel is far worse now then it's ever been. The Port-a-brig takes seconds to get out and a couple more seconds to put the person in and lock it and send it away. A lot can happen in those seconds. It's not the solution to this issue it's a band-aid. Frankly either the change needs to be reverted, Noah's patch replaces it or Security is given more leeway to kill these people without having to send really long adminhelps each step of the way.

---

Noah I don't see how I'm not being consistent. I've always said in this thread that I love the thing and that I use it but it barely helps in the grand scheme of things. I've voiced that countless times in this thread.

EDIT: Okay in this thread I have not said I use the port a brig but I never said I don't use it. The information I give on the thing should be a indication enough that I use the thing. I must be getting my threads mixed up as around Febuary and March there was alot of talk about the thing and I plan to go though those threads to find my post where I say I use the thing. The fact that I may have to do this in my defense over my viewpoints kills me though. Anyways here's one quote from one thread. The other thing is my constant call to remove it which has change to "Vastly change it or make the things you want us to use better instead of nerfing all the players" This change needs some real improvements.

I've always thought it was dumb that they could remove their cuffs inside it. I use the port a brig constantly cause I feel the pros outweigh the cons but that seriously bugged me.

[Frank_Stein]

I really think you're exaggerating how often people mess with you as Sec, how hard it is to brig people, and how often you have to deal with multiple opponents at once, because it's never been a problem for me before or after the change.

If not, then your experience at playing Sec is vastly different than mine because it's also my most frequently played role. If that's the case, maybe that has a lot more to do with how you act during a round and how people respond to it rather than inherent qualities of the role.

Consider that you don't have to fight every fight, especially when you're outmatched, or the environment is stacked against you.

I knew the polls were just going to lead to this situation

---

Also I've seen very little of belt hell being used since this change happen so again the only positive thing this change did was make instant kidnappings a thing of the past. But made everything else needlessly harder for no real reason.

If anything I hope you see that the backlash this idea has gotten is not because we hate change but is because you are trying to impose a certain playstyle on us.

I'd say that the under use of belthell is more to do with the fact that the docks are annoyingly out of the way, often right on the edge of the map. The quartermasters, the main users of belthell, have very little reason to send stuff across the station as there's few supplies departments actually need from QM.

EDIT: Also, did you know Ed, you can order additional port-a-brigs from the QM to arrest multiple people?

This is very relevant. The docks area in weird and inconvenient places. Additionally, things like the forklift can only accept certain crate types, meaning if you were to order something like phasers to take over to a staging area to fight off entrenched syndicates, you're gonna have to spend time transferring things around to the proper crate types.

Docks and cargo pads only help so much as delivering to specific areas. Still a bit hard to take something to somewhere that doesn't fit those site designations.

[Ed Venture]

If not, then your experience at playing Sec is vastly different than mine because it's also my most frequently played role. If that's the case, maybe that has a lot more to do with how you act during a round and how people respond to it rather than inherent qualities of the role.

Well from what my feedback from other players and admins are to go by I do a alright job. The people who keep messing with me only do it after I arrest them for things like assaults, trespassing and stealing. Which is all things I crackdown on now harshly as many players have expressed they are sick of it on LLJK2. Before bringing my playstyle and player interactions into question I think you should either play Security with me or watch me. I'm nothing but nice to people and usually give them three chances to quit their shit before getting violent.

---

I really think you're exaggerating how often people mess with you as Sec, how hard it is to brig people, and how often you have to deal with multiple opponents at once, because it's never been a problem for me before or after the change.

This is also the reason why I wish I could record my rounds. I got no reason to lie about my experiences. The treatment I get is why I mostly play on low population times (10 to 15 players) now if I can.

[babayetu83]

what a surprise that the poll results aren't being honored 

were they not to your liking?

[Grayshift]

I did not make any polls.

Actually, I've just had an idea how to maybe speed up lockers/crates without re-enabling the bad behavior. Hmm.

[babayetu83]

playing that card now are we

then in the future, for the sake of clarity and tempering people's expectations there should be a short disclaimer stating that its results may or may not be used