Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it!

[Ed Venture]

We have not really been given a answer to why this change was needed in the first place.

Just because you don't like the answer you've been given doesn't mean you haven't been given an answer.

Like I said feels like there's more to it. At least I hope so cause the reason given does not justify such a huge change in my opinion. You can say you don't have to justify anything to me and your right. But I do feel you have to explain how this change is a good thing to the playerbase the people you make the changes for as many of them in this thread have expressed that they don't like the change and just like me they would like to see some effort from the coders to explain why they thought it was a good idea and why it was needed. This change is overkill just to force us to use items we never even needed before. I've already explained why nerfing everyone just so items we never needed before get used is a bad way to get us to use said items and a bad reason to drastically change the game. I'm not expecting that to be addressed though since it's been avoided so far. But I would really love if my concerns relating to security could be addressed.

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Here's are all my concerns just incase you have not read them.

The speed for dragging people has pretty dire implications for playing sec. And before anyone says anything, fuck the port-a-brig.

This is my main concern as I play nothing but Security. You can say use the port a brig but I still have to get them to a place so I can grab my PDA, Open the window, call the port-a-brig, throw them in it and lock it, then go back to my PDA and send it back. That can take more then a few seconds and alot can happen in a few seconds. Such a easy task has now been made considerably harder. If you are trying to give more reasons to not play security you are doing a great job at that.

I can live with this change the one good thing I can say about it is that it's going to make dealing with people who take the people you handcuff away easier to deal with. But it's also going to make the game slow to a crawl at some points and I don't think that's a good thing.

I won't lie. I think it's a bad change mainly cause I think it's going to make security needlessly harder and I believe the reasoning behind the change is a poor one with not that much thought going into it. Again the reason stated in the IRC was because no one uses other transportation items. That means they are not viable for most players and if the way to make them viable is to nerf every single player then I have to say it's bad as I don't believe forcing players to use things we never needed before is a good thing. Make things better so we want to use them without making somethings worse.

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This also makes dragging people to safety alot harder as well. You can say it's harder for antags to drag people away as well, so it's balanced for both sides and your right, but for the most part the only antags that's going to be effected are Changelings and Vampires. Any other antag just kills on the spot. Getting people out of harm's way and saving them is always my top proity as a Security Officer which I feel is now unnecessarily harder to do. This will just encourage players to ignore dead bodies and injured players more so then they do now and encourage security to just hunt for antags instead of caring for the crew while trying to protect them.

[Flourish]

I like the idea of maybe only being slowed down when pulling bulky items.

Though, my main concern is with bodies. Often, we have to pull people away from explosions/breaches/antags/whatever dangerous thing, or to medbay, and it'd really suck if we had to choose between being a good samaritan and maybe getting killed ourselves, or leaving them behind and escaping.

[poland spring]

yeah we are definitely going to see an uptick in not only explosions and hull breaches but things like maneaters and killer tomatoes, golems etc. that require someone to pull you away in order to not get murdered

[looselystyled]

But I do feel you have to explain how this change is a good thing to the playerbase the people you make the changes for as many of them in this thread have expressed that they don't like the change and just like me they would like to see some effort from the coders to explain why they thought it was a good idea and why it was needed.

Wow, that is quite the run-on sentence.

In other news, no, demanding explanations is not a productive mode of conversation. And you said it yourself, they thought it was a good idea because it would encourage people to use transportation items that seem underutilized. Perhaps it wasn't a great reason, but it's reason enough, and you need to stop badgering them.

It seems there are both advantages and disadvantages to this change. What suggestions can you offer, other than completely reversing the update, that would make this change more favorable to you? I've read over your security concerns, and they all seem very valid. Are there any solutions you can recommend? It is far more difficult for a coder to make a change in response to an wandering complaint than in response to concrete ideas about what can be done to resolve a problem.

It looks like reducing the speed-reduction for people and body pulling is a pretty common request so far, we'll see how the admins respond to that. Anything else that would help?

[poland spring]

skateboards are way too difficult to pull considering they have wheels

[Ed Venture]

I feel bodies could be change to move just a tad higher. We are almost at the sweet spot for them in my opinion. Also sprinting drains stamina so fast that it's hardly makes a difference.

Already threw in a suggestion.

Also I am merely asking them to explain their thought process. When we don't get full explanation on huge changes it leads to assumptions and misconceptions from the users. That was also the first post I made asking for them to explain the thought process behind the change so it's hardly badgering them.

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But I do feel you have to explain how this change is a good thing to the playerbase the people you make the changes for as many of them in this thread have expressed that they don't like the change and just like me they would like to see some effort from the coders to explain why they thought it was a good idea and why it was needed.

And you said it yourself, they thought it was a good idea because it would encourage people to use transportation items that seem underutilized.

I was also asking how come instead of making those items better they made other things worse in a way to force us to use those items. As a player who loves the freedom of goonstation I don't like being forced to use things if I don't have to or want to. You can say no one is forcing us to use anything but come on if we take what little they have said about it this change was clearly made to get us to use things we never needed or asked for.

[Ines]

Ok how do you suggest we make those items better?

[Ed Venture]

[quote='Ed Venture' pid='92342' dateline='1487031782']
But I do feel you have to explain how this change is a good thing to the playerbase the people you make the changes for as many of them in this thread have expressed that they don't like the change and just like me they would like to see some effort from the coders to explain why they thought it was a good idea and why it was needed.

Keywords/phase there was "would like to see" I was not demanding anything but admittedly I should have said "But maybe you should explain" instead of saying "But I do feel" so I apologize on my poor wording. I would agree that they don't need to tell us anything about their reasoning if this was a little change but it's not. It a huge game changer that effects every single player on this server so excuse me if I wanted some more insight on why they wanted to change it and their reasoning behind wanting us to use those items.

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Ok how do you suggest we make those items better?

I don't know admittedly I only play security and never needed those items But maybe you could answer my question on why it's a good thing to force us to use things we never needed to use before by making other features worse? I've already explained why I feel how this change was made was bad and I would appreciate it if my questions and concerns were not answered with questions from the administration. That just makes us run around in circles.

[looselystyled]

Also I am merely asking them to explain their thought process. When we don't get full explanation as huge changes it leads to assumptions and misconceptions from the users.

[...]

I was also asking how come instead of making those items better they made other things worse in a way to force us to use those items. As a player who loves the freedom of goonstation I don't like being forced to use things if I don't have to or want to. You can say no one is forcing us to use anything but come on if we take what little they have said about it this change was clearly made to get us to use things we never needed or asked for.

These are valid concerns that would be best addressed elsewhere. This is a thread for helpful suggestions. If you have more helpful suggestions to provide, please provide them.

Thumbs-up on the one you did give, I missed that before. Sorry.

[Ines]

Answering my question to your question with a question doesn't make things better. We don't actually have to tell anyone why we do anything.

[Ed Venture]

These are valid concerns that would be best addressed elsewhere. This is a thread for helpful suggestions. If you have more helpful suggestions to provide, please provide them.

The OP said it was okay for overall discussion

Answering my question to your question with a question doesn't make things better. We don't actually have to tell anyone why we do anything.

Nice dodge. Yeah you don't but it would be nice instead of keeping your playerbase in the dark. That can lead to players being driven away in extreme cases. Luckily most coders are nice enough to communicate with the people they make the changes for. But if you refuse to answer my questions why should you feel I need to answer yours? Communication just like trust is a two way street.

[looselystyled]

Ed, this seems to be moving beyond general discussion about the change. You're inciting conflict regarding a larger issue, namely, coders sometimes make changes to the game in order to drive a certain style of play at the expense of other elements that people appreciate. Personally, I think this would be better addressed in a separate thread.

If you really must have the discussion here, demanding that they explain the thought process behind the change doesn't seem to be the right way to approach it.

It also seems like you have all the evidence you need to make a meaningful case for why coders should put more consideration and discussion into changes before implementing them. Do you want additional rationalization for this change just so you can attack their line of reasoning? That doesn't seem very productive or... nice.

The change has been made. Please help try to improve the change instead of condemning the change. For everyone's sake.

[Ed Venture]

Ed, this seems to be moving beyond general discussion about the change. You're inciting conflict regarding a larger issue, namely, coders sometimes make changes to the game in order to drive a certain style of play at the expense of other elements that people appreciate. Personally, I think this would be better addressed in a separate thread.

I've already been thinking about making a thread on the subject. Conflict is not my goal I just want more information on it but my annoyance over the change is clearly starting to show and get in the way of the points I am trying to make and I apologize for that.

I feel I am giving them feedback, it's negative feedback but it's still feedback. I want to know the full reasoning if there is any to better understand the change not "attack" them over it. Like I said less info on big gameplay changes leads to assumptions, misconceptions and some cases anger. I love the coders they do really great work but when I feel they make bad changes I let them know how I feel and having my concerns which you yourself said were real concerns ignored does make me a tad annoyed. The philosophy of "Don't fix what aint broken" and the saying "Change is only good when it makes things better" goes along way.

If you think any of my posts and negative feedback was made with the intent to attack and make them feel bad you are dead wrong and I am sorry if you feel that way. There's always been a communication issue between the coders and playerbase for years, I've talked about it and nothing changed and we repeat the same events over and over again because of it. That's not the subject of this thread though but like I said if we were given a heads up and gave feedback prior to it being added alot of anger and annoyance may have been avoided and it could have been better then it is now from the get go.

[somepotato]

Keep it civil. And on topic. I'm gonna make the end of those who start unruly mean words!!!!!!!
If you have a problem with our communication (or lack thereof), feel free to make a thread about it.

[babayetu83]

i think what could lessen the impact of this is if there was more items and equipment for use in moving the items and with more improvements to preexisting items like the forklift and the mulebot.

like a handcart. just click n drag stuff on and pull the handcart.  though at this point why not just cut out the middleman and not make things annoying to pull

or add a stretcher to pull people around. or make the forklift not move as slow as molasses. or add a handle to the mulebot so you can pull it around like a wagon instead of hoping the AI cooperates with what you want to do.