Chain of Command: Captain or HoS

[TheNewTeddy]

Why the fuck is this vote even close at all?

[UrsulaMejor]

Why the fuck is this vote even close at all?

Because the issue isn't cut and dry.

[TheNewTeddy]

Why the fuck is this vote even close at all?

Because the issue isn't cut and dry.

Except it is. The "other side" argument is nonsense quite frankly. I have to restrain myself from going into a savage personal attack over this bullshit.

[APARTHEID]

Personally? The Captain is in charge of the whole joint, Head of Security included.

In actuality? The Captain is in charge of nothing and the Head of Security is there to keep everything from falling apart.

To take it a step further, the Medical Director, Research Director, Chief Engineer, and Head of Personnel hold more sway over their departments than the Captain, just as the Head of Security is defacto in charge of Security proper.

The Captain, while having all the access and all the prestige, is nothing more than a leader of leaders; the position doesn't really oversee anything other than the other leader positions.

[ferriswheel1]

I follow whomever has the sexiest hat at the time.

Strange corporations distributing nice hats is no basis for a chain of command.

[Sundance]

Except it is. The "other side" argument is nonsense quite frankly. I have to restrain myself from going into a savage personal attack over this bullshit.

Would you be able to explain your position in a civil manner? I'm interested to hear it.

Quite frankly the results are exactly the way I thought they would go, clown included. The crew are naturally insubordinate, they'll side with whoever suits their needs so long as they don't break the rules. The position I think your taking ursula is a bit laughable, do you really think the crew takes orders?
Short answer: No they do not, the station is a zoo. Security do however. And they follow the HoS, unless the HoS is a raving lunatic, in which case they'll (probably) follow the Captain.

I will note is that the AI should preference the Captain over the HoS as it's in his laws to follow the chain of command, with the Captain theoretically on top, unless this of course breaks law 1. In which case he should definetely follow the HoS. But according to the chain of command he probably could follow the HoP too, but the HoP is often seen as a spineless dork so it's not surprising the AI would choose the HoS over the HoP.

One thing I want to touch on is your scenarios, as I feel like it's one of the reasons you made this thread.
Take the example of walling off a corridor with pizza steel. This is warrent of an asskicking in my regard and is a deliction of duty.
So damn what if the captain ordered you to do it? That's a complete and utter cop-out and the captain is twisting his position to have "fun" and you followed his order to have "fun", absolutely nothing to do with the chain of command, you would've done it if it was the clown doing it, and you wouldn't of followed his "order" if it didn't suit you, see above.
The HoS is fully entitled to stop this because you are blocking off the corridor, so people can get trapped, or even die if they were in crit and had to make it to medbay. The HoS after all is a mediator between people having fun at other peoples expense. If you cross that line, you get put in the slammer, captain included.

Now a different scenario was if the captain ordered a bunch of people to make one of those mechanic "papers please" obstructions where they have to pay to cross. That's different. The HoS in the scenario should play along, maybe even ask for a cut. It's the nature of the situation and quite frankly it's down to the interpertation of the HoS. The captain's position as Head of Head's only has some weight in that matter.

[babayetu83]

i dont see what the argument is

the rd is the head of the research department, chief medical officer is the head of medbay, chief engineer is the head of engineering, and the head of security is the head of station's security, all lead by the captain

i don't see what the problem is

[Mordent]

A lot of people here are massively overthinking or confusing this; the captain has higher authority, but who has more loyalty varies from shift to shift (generally massively in favour of the HoS).

• If you're in the security department, listen to the HoS.
  
• If you're a department head then comply with both where possible, or whichever you feel like when the captain's being shit. 90% of the time the HoS has no business telling you how to run your department, so while they're higher in the chain of command than you drag your feet if you wish.
  
• If you're not a department head, feel free to deflect any of these problems onto your department head.

Done.

[atamusvaleo]

Yeah, I had to stop reading this thread halfway through because I was getting frustrated. A lot of what I was hearing boiled down to this:

I know the Captain has authority over all of the crew but [insert personal reasons for going against it, which completely ignore the beginning of this sentence].

Captain has the highest authority. The AI's chain of command writeup settles this in the first line.

It's the job of the HoS to enforce security on the station/ship. So, if the Captain is being traitorous, feel free to arrest him.

The only thing worthy of discussion is whether the HoS should arrest a traitor captain or to blindly follow orders and rain hellfire down on the crew. To which I say, do whichever pleases you in that situation.

I think this argument is really about an entirely different issue, that being: "When is it okay to ignore orders from a superior?"

[GEC]

This is a really interesting discussion that borders on sociology territory,  since it seems to be a matter of authority and power and which one is considered to hold real control of the station.
Maybe comparing it to something a bit closer to home will make it easier to interpret;  which one holds the real power: the US military or thr US president? 
A dictatorship could be considered to be what happens when the power that the military holds exceeds the authority of the president. So the question ends up being whether the station is a dictatorship or at which point does it turn into one?

[Frank_Stein]

90% of the time the HoS has no business telling you how to run your department, so while they're higher in the chain of command than you drag your feet if you wish.

• If you're not a department head, feel free to deflect any of these problems onto your department head.
  

Actually, this is a really good point.

While I do think the HoS is who is trusted more and will be followed vs the Captain, they don't really have the right to say, burst into genetics and start whipping themselves up superpowers while telling the geneticists to take a hike. Unless there's some emergency security reason to do so, they can't barge into departments and order people how to do their job.

The Captain on the other hand could do this, because they're everyone's boss.

Now, if the order is shit you should defer to your department head and if you are the head you should bring up your issues with the Captain to HoS (ideally I think this would actually be up to the HoP to settle as the HR kinda guy, but they'd probably go to the HoS anyway if the Captain refused to compromise) and if the Captain continued to be crap at the cost of the station the HoS would probably assume command and we're back to where we started.

[Ed Venture]

I think this argument is really about an entirely different issue, that being: "When is it okay to ignore orders from a superior?"

When the order gets in the way of doing your Job.

If the order leads to the harm of the crew.

Or if it's even important or fun enough to follow.

If the order has nothing to do with your department.

---

Except it is. The "other side" argument is nonsense quite frankly. I have to restrain myself from going into a savage personal attack over this bullshit.

Take a deep breath Teddy.

[Sundance]

90% of the time the HoS has no business telling you how to run your department, so while they're higher in the chain of command than you drag your feet if you wish.
[ul]
[li]If you're not a department head, feel free to deflect any of these problems onto your department head.[/li]
[/ul]

Actually, this is a really good point.

While I do think the HoS is who is trusted more and will be followed vs the Captain, they don't really have the right to say, burst into genetics and start whipping themselves up superpowers while telling the geneticists to take a hike. Unless there's some emergency security reason to do so, they can't barge into departments and order people how to do their job.

The Captain on the other hand, could do this, because they're everyone's boss.

Now, if the order is shit you should defer to your department head and if you are the head you should bring up your issues with the Captain to HoS (ideally I think this would actually be up to the HoP to settle as the HR kinda guy, but they'd probably go to the HoS anyway if the Captain refused to compromise) and if the Captain continued to be crap at the cost of the station the HoS would probably assume command and we're back to where we started.

Actually gotta lend in my support to this aswell. This is a very good example of where the HoS shouldn't poke his nose in. He has no business in demanding genetics stuff, no business in raiding QM, no business in telling the engineers to set up the engine (but can grump like the rest of the crew), no business at telling the chemists what to make, etc. The captain most definetely can try though. And so can heads of their respective department. Actually a small pet peeve is I wish heads would actually act like heads, not even from an RP sense. So the RD actually has some control over what's been researched, rather than being just a better stocked scientist. Topic for another thread perhaps...

[Frank_Stein]

Actually gotta lend in my support to this aswell. This is a very good example of where the HoS shouldn't poke his nose in. He has no business in demanding genetics stuff, no business in raiding QM, no business in telling the engineers to set up the engine (but can grump like the rest of the crew), no business at telling the chemists what to make, etc. The captain most definetely can try though. And so can heads of their respective department. Actually a small pet peeve is I wish heads would actually act like heads, not even from an RP sense. So the RD actually has some control over what's been researched, rather than being just a better stocked scientist. Topic for another thread perhaps...

That's also a good example of when the HoS needs the other heads and the Captain. If the HoS does want to do any of these things and the people in the department object, all they have to do is get permission from relevant Head or the Captain for it to be legal. Any resistance after that is grounds for arrest, which definitely is their department

[TheNewTeddy]

Except it is. The "other side" argument is nonsense quite frankly. I have to restrain myself from going into a savage personal attack over this bullshit.

Would you be able to explain your position in a civil manner?

I will try.

I think the best thing I can do is to help people understand why this seems to crystal clear to me.


Imagine there is a new game to play. It's a squad based game. The squad has 6 people in it. The "Squad Leader", the "Squad Engineer", the  "Squad Doctor", the "Squad Gunner", the "Squad Bombardier" and the "Squad Robot".

Now the Robot has a specific set of rules to follow because he is a robot. Those rules match up with the titles. The leader is to be obeyed. These rules are written down on the wiki for the robot to follow.

As the game goes on a problem props up. The Bombardier you see is the only person allowed to carry bombs. He can, with one fuckup, kill the entire squad. Quickly too. A bad Leader can be ignored, a bad Robot can be bricked, but a bad Bombardier means game over. 

So, to prevent this, the admins decide to start a register. All players who plan to be a Bombardier will need to ask if they are allowed.


Years pass.


Someone posts a question asking who is the Leader of the squad. The Leader or the Bombardier. 



1 - We already know the answer. It's on the wiki. It's also in the person's title. There is no question. Why the person would even have this question is absurd.

2 - As mentioned above, the Robot has to, according to the game rules, follow the orders of the Leader. As such this preposterous question only applies to the other players in the game. 

3 - The only reason the Bombardier needs to register is because they can really fuck things up. The fact they need approval is not an indication that they are anointed by the admin team with any kind of leadership mandate. 

4 - That anyone would even think "Is Leader Leader or is Not-Leader Leader?" is something that's undecided.




Now. Given that situation, do you understand how someone who has played off and on for years could feel that




A - 50% of the playerbase is playing a different game than them, given that this fundamental, simple, clear, and obvious question even has to be raised.

B - 50% of the playerbase is playing a different game than them, given that this fundamental, simple, clear, and obvious question has been answered incorrectly.

C - That the argument that because one of the two jobs needs the admins to say "we trust you not to fuck this up" means, in any way "you are in charge now", can be infuriating when it clearly does not.





The answer to this is very clear and very simple.


I - The wiki says the captain is in charge, so the captain is in charge.

II - The wiki lays out very specific times when this is not the case, meaning all other situations have the captain in charge. 

III - The wiki does not detail a punishment for refusing to follow the orders of the Captain. That means you can tell that fucker to blow chunks if you want to ignore him.

IV - The fact that you've told the Captain to blow chunks does not mean he's not your boss, nor does it mean you have to stop being belligerent and listen to him.





In short:

If you are on the RP server and ignore the captain, you better be committing a mutiny on purpose. Maybe this is what you want to do, and I could see that being interesting. The RP server has it's own set of rules and regulations, and I don't feel the majority of this discussion has focused on that, so, I will continue with that in mind.

If you are not on the RP server, and you are the AI or a Borg, you must follow the laws telling you to obey the Captain. Again, the discussion does not seem to focus on that much, so I'm going to presume that we are not talking about what an AI or Borg should do. In fact, it's clearly spelled out what an AI or Borg should do, follow the captain unless it's a security matter. What is a security matter? You decide. 

If you are not on the RP server, and are a Human, you are free to do whatever the fuck you want without breaking any of these rules. Despite that, you are under no obligation to listen to the Captain, the HoS, the Barman, or anyone. If you decide some random ass Staff Assistant is the person you want to listen to, you go right ahead; but don't go A-Helping the Captain and HoS for stunning you and locking you up for insubordination. 




Even shorter:

The only time this fucking matters is if the HoS decides to butt heads with the Captain, and if that happens unless it's CLEARLY black and white...

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.

If you get mad cause the captain is salty at you not following his orders, either A-Help him, or shut the fuck up and stop playing the game.
If you get mad because you are the captain and someone is getting salty and not following your orders, either A-Help him, or shut the fuck up and stop playing the game.