Game Rules Rewrite

[popecrunch]

Okay, the thread's been here for a week as of tomorrow, has everyone who wanted to have input had a shot

[ISaidNo]

can we seriously ditch the "dont log out as AI" thing, AIs arent that important and its entirely understandable someone might not want to put up with with that shit

[popecrunch]

I'd absolutely be in favor of removing it if either it yelped in adminlog/IRC when the AI logged out while not dead, or (even better) blabbed in the station like it does if the crew doesn't start the engine.

e: basically remove the 'and nobody knows about it' part of an ai logging out and there's no issue i m o

[popecrunch]

OK coderchat's buzzing on giving AI some love, announcements when the AI logs out and the ability to turn a player into an AI. I've moved it from 'rules' to 'strong request in things to keep in mind, with a note that it's a bandaid for now since AI is set to get some love'.

Anything else before I move the thread to the player side?

[popecrunch]

Hokay moving the thread.

HELLO MY LOVELY FRIENDS

In this thread, we're debating updates to the game rules. The most current incarnation of the rules will always be at http://wiki.ss13.co/User:Popecrunch and I will keep it current with changes we agree on.

I moved the thread here so if anybody had any comments, criticism, concerns, etc etc they could be discussed. Please note that I am not promising that every idea or even any idea will make it into the final form. And now, a word about useful input:

This is not a hangout or chat thread. If you have feedback about the rules, please provide it, so long as it is constructive and meaningful. 'i don't think you covered x' 'do we really need to codify y?' 'i'm pretty sure that's not how we handle z' are all fine. 'please use the british spelling for colour' 'only one space after a period, please' 'NSFW is a better acronym to use than NWS' are all nitpicky details. I understand this is a difficult distinction to make, so I'm not going to punish people unless they're harping about a meaningless detail that has already been asked and answered. I am not your kindergarten teacher, it is not my job to give you a pat on the head and tell you that every sound that falls out of your face is special and wonderful. If you want to post just to post, do it elsewhere.

tl;dr version: please discuss the new incarnation of game rules. if you post about something that is really not relevant like sports scores or something else obviously not related, you will take a break from the forums for a little while! If it is related to the rules but not useful, I'll clearly say 'this isn't useful' or otherwise make it clear that a given idea isn't useful to discuss here. You'll only get dragged out behind the chemical shed if you insist on yapping about it. If you super wanna discuss something offtopic or declared irrelevant, make another thread!!!! it is even ok to post a link to it if you think it has bearing on the rules discussion, i'm not going to chop off your hands with a big knife for going 'okay, you don't want that discussed ITT, that's cool, i started a thread here for it, pax chums'. thank

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I'll leave the thread here for one week unless there's still useful discussion happening.

[69andahalf]

I'm not sure how people actually feel about antag rampages, but perhaps under the "things to keep in mind" section there could be a topic about making the round fun for not only yourself but the station? It might be an issue putting it near the rules though, as people may think they could get banned for being a bad antag, but looking at how some people have reacted to no-fun silent rampages it might be worth a mention.

[Ed Venture]

I'm not sure how people actually feel about antag rampages, but perhaps under the "things to keep in mind" section there could be a topic about making the round fun for not only yourself but the station? It might be an issue putting it near the rules though, as people may think they could get banned for being a bad antag, but looking at how some people have reacted to no-fun silent rampages it might be worth a mention.

One we have a thread where most people have recently said they are fine with rampages and Two I don't think that needs to be in the rules. The Rules tell players what not to do, not how to do something and is really not a place to put a "Please play your rare Antag rounds like this please" message and lastly it does not need to be added cause it's not really a rule.

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Again I'm pretty happy with you updating the rules list. Quite alot of confusion over what certain rules meant over the years and I'm happy you put something in there about Rule lawyering as it was annoy just to see people try to wiggle out of things they did. I don't have much feedback for it other then I think it's great and thank you for taking the time to make the IRC rules and update the Server rules.

[CameronWoof]

Should maybe add radio chatter as possible antag proof. Having to confirm for yourself that Sally C-saber is an antagonist by checking her PDA or whatever after she's killed four people seems like a bad idea.

[Ed Venture]

You might want to put something in there detailing when it's okay to fight back cause some people take the rules so literal (even though it was said in a admin complaint not to) that they won't fight back, let themselves die cause they were too scared of getting banned. Radio chatter is not proof but if people are saying "X is rampaging" and you see evidence of a rampage and then you come face to face with "X" and he starts attacking you I think it's safe to say it's a do or die situation. It's seriously not that hard to tell when you can fight back but some people have a serious issue about it.


Also if you kill a person in self defense and don't know if they were a antag then just adminhelp and tell them how you did not start the fight and they most likely won't be upset about it.

[CameronWoof]

you come face to face with "X" and he starts attacking you

This is the issue with that rule, and why people seem to be "so passive about antags." Having to wait for THIS SITUATION to attack someone who everyone is calling an antag is really shitty. Waiting for the antag to get the first shot, as is his god-given right by the confirmation rules, and then putting on your best shocked-betrayed face as this unconfirmed traitor murders the shit out of you while you flail at him with disarm intent/a fire extinguisher, is probably exactly the issue people have with antags right now. 

Confirmation rules need to be a lot more lax.

[Grek]

I absolutely hate the changes to Don't Grief. The new wording means that if a traitor decides to rampage with 12 microbombs, a backpack full of ordinary pipe bombs and a flamethrower, you're supposed to call security to arrest them because they don't have any traitor gear and you can't "prove" that they're an antag instead of just a griefer. It also doesn't cover certain major exceptions, such as:

• You are a silicon and your laws allow it.
  
• You're killing a cluwne.
  
• You're killing a monkey who is being a jerk. (I am actually OK with this going back to being banned, fyi)
  
• The Floorpill Exception. (If you eat/drink something and it hurts you, that is your fault, not whoever made it.)
  
  

[Ed Venture]

Confirmation rules need to be a lot more lax.

I completely agree with you on that. But I don't think radio chatter should not be considered as a confirmation as the antags themselves can say anything on the radio. Maybe if a Security officer or HoS sent out a warning though the radio or the HoS security announcement computer then maybe ( I would say yes then maybe but anyone can be mindslaved)

[CameronWoof]

Confirmation rules need to be a lot more lax.

I completely agree with you on that. But I don't think radio chatter should not be considered as a confirmation as the antags themselves can say anything on the radio. Maybe if a Security officer or HoS sent out a warning though the radio or the HoS security announcement computer then maybe ( I would say yes then maybe but anyone can be mindslaved)

Maybe that's just dandy, though? Turning the crew against someone using a mindslaved security officer sounds like a fine way to tator. But honestly, if you hear more than one account of Duder killing people, Duder being KOS is probably just fine?

[Grek]

I don't like radio messages as a metric, because of changelings. But "I see them attacking someone with a weapon" should be plenty, imo.

[Ed Venture]

Honestly I would say so but others might disagree. For me it's pretty easy to tell when it's okay to fight back even to the death but that's because I play security almost non-stop. Anyways I agree with you the confirmation rules need to be reworked since it's just leading to people not even fighting back at all out of fear of being yelled at by a admin.

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Anyways that's all I have to say on that topic most likely won't talk about it from here on out unless Popecrunch addresses it.