Rampages

[Frank_Stein]

[quote pid='75049' dateline='1466814653']
edireally also, fingerprints? like, really? does anyone really actively do detective work nowadays + what's wrong with a little paranoia if somebody decided to PICK UP AND CARRY AROUND CONTRABAND THEY FOUND rather than reporting it to the proper channels

Not really related but finger print investigation is extremely underrated. I was able to find and slay a changeling the other day as HoS by simply just taking note of finger prints on changeling victims.
[/quote]

Yeah, detective can be really fun when you're on top of your intelligence gathering. The way I play it, you will almost never see me, since I'll be running prints, checking the manifest, and watching cameras while hiding in lockers and garbage bins

[Zafhset]

I'm pretty sure the admins don't punish for accidental/wrongful killings during a ling round- I've gotten people killed and lynched by swapping blood tests and making them looking like the culprit of stings before, and they didn't catch any flak for it from the admins who were present. Sort of to be expected if crafty lings are present.

Rampagers shouldn't be an issue - antags should allowed to do anything they want within their own capabilities, (as long as it isn't overboard rude like camping arrivals, etc).
They should also have an expectancy of having most of the crew out for their blood as a result.

Ideally.

But most people would either sit in their own departments doing their own thing and wait to die, or flat out do nothing because even though it counts as self-defense since there's a high expectation of being killed by him/her/it, some people would still end up calling them goddamn "vigilantes" or "powergamers".

[UrsulaMejor]

What we're seeing is the result of the campaign against vigilantes. No one really likes those guys, but they are the major stopgap against rampagers.

[Roomba]

I might be in the minority, but I don't think it's all that bad for admins to take action if someone is rampaging in the exact same way every antag round, especially if it's been happening for several rounds in a row and the crew are getting tired of it. Keeping rounds interesting is part of an admin's job, after all. Maybe not to the extent of an antag ban, but I wouldn't mind more admin intervention in such cases, though they should preferably be aimed less towards punishing the one guy and more towards giving the dead crew something to do.

That said, I understand where everyone else is coming from. I end up as the AI more often than not and I've often had to try to moderate my responses to e.g. calling out lings I spot early based on whoever is on. Sometimes I'm yelled at by admins for e.g. turning an intercom in a room where evil plans are being hatched to the public channel, other times AIs will do absolutely nothing but focus on stopping 'bad guys' and admins will defend them to the ends of the earth.

[Sundance]

I agree rampaging is an issue, but I don't think the rampager would necessarily be at fault here. C'mon now, everyone every once and a while likes to let loose, when given the opportunity.

The issue with some rampaging is twofold, which creates unmitigated disaster:

A) No opposing force aka: No security. The issue with security is player mindset, something that can only change by making security more attractive. 
Opposing force doesn't mean players who outright target the antagonist either. Competent medical doctors keep alive the people who are and their targets too. Competent AI's will be essential fonts of information. Competent engineers will make sure engine's  running and any explosions are sealed. Yes that's ridiculously clasping on idealism but I think apathy is a real problem on goon. Too many people in their own little world and not getting involved in current goings-on is a bad thing tm

B) Exploits or OP combinations. There's always going to be something that needs a tweak. Question the rampage: Does the deaths of the crew look (not feel) really cheap? Is something been done over and over and over because it's too damn easy to do it? Then re-balance it. This falls into the realm of vigilantism too: Some forms to take down antagonists I've seen are downright awful and are devolved of any sense of fun.

Failing all of that: Admin intervention is a good thing. No outright killing the rampager is a bad thing. But creating circumstances in gives that rampager a challenge, something that he might actually succeed in winning is what the goal should be.

[babayetu83]

i like rampages if theyre done well but most of the time people would rather just bend over and take it than actually put forth the effort to fight back and as a result the rampager steamrolls the whole entire station

[Roomba]

I don't think the blame should be shifted entirely to people unwilling to fight back directly - it isn't in their job scope, after all. Rampages aren't exactly the most creative thing, and it's hard to blame people who go 'this guy isn't putting any effort into his traitoring, I'm not putting any effort into resisting him'. Like Sundance says, I'd rather see more generally competent and cooperative play overall rather than playing up that every-man-for-himself atmosphere where you're encouraged to be a paranoid dickhead ready to beat anyone who comes within meleeing distance to death with an extinguisher.

[babayetu83]

I don't think the blame should be shifted entirely to people unwilling to fight back directly - it isn't in their job scope, after all. Rampages aren't exactly the most creative thing, and it's hard to blame people who go 'this guy isn't putting any effort into his traitoring, I'm not putting any effort into resisting him'. Like Sundance says, I'd rather see more generally competent and cooperative play overall rather than playing up that every-man-for-himself atmosphere where you're encouraged to be a paranoid dickhead ready to beat anyone who comes within meleeing distance to death with an extinguisher.

"oh it isn't within the scope of my job to help fight off rampagers. i guess i'll just sit here and let myself die. i could just suicide and make the process even faster but eh i won't expend the energy to do so"

then is it within their job scope to just get shot in the fucking face and not do anything about it?

[Nnystyxx]

I think there might be a sort of instinctual reaction in people to expect rampaging antags to be completely unstoppable/cheapshit (instastuns, acid, hypnosis, etc.) so they just don't bother and surrender the fun or progress they made. Like, yes, people get stuck in their Own Little World to an extent, but also Goon is filled with really deep and interesting systems (chem, botany, mechanics) that a Prospective Antag absolutely gives no shits about and if they want their murderbone BY GOD they will have it, god willing, no matter what anyone else was doing. Why would people not get absorbed in an absorbing game system? What are we supposed to do, make the jobs boring so we have even less attachment to them?

[misto]

killing people is basically an antag's job, going in loud and violent is and was always a valid option. thats why shotguns and shit are buyable with telecrystals.

if you think theyre too good at it, there are a lot more subtle ways to try to lean on the scales.

if deadchat is bitching make one of them a wraith or blob or something and let them simultaneously join the havoc and try to wreak vengeance. then the hated antag is opposed by a fellow antag player who is also bound by the constraints of the game, its all basically fair and square.

if somebodys rampaging then they like to fight and kill. what are they gonna do, complain at you for sending them more things to fight?

[Boa Jacque]

The forensics scanner is super robust. Finding insulated fibers narrows your search tremendously. Finding only one set of prints on a traitor item narrows your search to 1.
I do get the headache it is to be detective, as any random traitor probably will take any chance they can to quickly off you, given the chance. For one you have a gun and a buncha bullets, and some traitors feel the need to pack lots of guns (or manage to use up all their ammo in short order). Plus if you are competent then you are a huge threat.
----

In regards to admins fucking with rampagers -- Its happened to me once. It wasn't as bad as getting a floorcluwne thrown at me or any of the other worse instances of intervention mentioned recently. But at the time I discovered what was going on I felt cheated... I was a wizard and was cheaply killing with TK, stuns, and deathpills and I'd killed half a dozen or more people. Suddenly I was fighting a really robust and stun resistant crewman who was jazzed up with a handful of good genetic traits. This guy was admin spawned in, and after gibbing this guy I encountered 2 more admin-respawned supermen. Their abilities varied a bit and their objective was to take me out. They were granted stun and fire resist, 2 of the main things I was employing, which I thought was a little cheap.

In the end, despite feeling like an admin was grudging my playstyle, I thought it was alright.(In this case) I got to fight a few superpowered enemies and the dead in deadchat had somebody to root for. The 3 supermen got an extra life and essentially a unique counter-antag role. I'm cool with them being handed some extra fun, its a positive way to handle a boring rampage. (unless they whined and bitched and the admin did this to quell the whines of salty ghosts, please no sympathy for babies)

I'd have felt way more cheated if I'd lost to these supermen but I won so I get to look back at it from both sides without feeling jaded. The admin didn't gib me, didn't rip off my limbs or directly "touch" my character in any way, and didn't go so far as to make my opponents undefeatable. I don't think it was fair they were super-granted resistances to my stuff, and would have prefered them to be granted a syndie PDA or some shit, as this wouldn't essentially -take- away any of my powers. But I like how more players got to have fun with the round, and I bet deadchat was full of the jeers and cheers you'd expect at a heated sports event -- way better than an empty deadchat or 2 idiot crew arguing over who broke the rules in attacking the other or etc.

That being said, the level of intervention on rampages has become distasteful in my opinion. We basically roll dice for antag, its a fair system. Fair because whoever gets to be the badguy gets to do it their way with their "roll". Some days I rampage, some days I sneak, some days I try hard to complete my objectives. Either way I'll be trying to have fun, and i'm the lucky license holder of the "your fun can ruin others fun so just do what seems most fun and don't worry" ticket. Tampering with this sentiment feels at its core very un-goonstation.

---

[Boa Jacque]

On Vigilantes:
Once upon a time, the word wasnt even used against somebody who killed a rampager. Everyone just knew that if you went loud, somebody was either gonna kill the traitor in self defense, or a lynch mob would form because the traitor fucked their department and now the displaced crew is without constructive things to do and has a reason to hate the rampager -- these folks often became the "heroes" of the round and exacted due revenge on the traitor. Extra credit, in the form of kudos were handed out to any crew that killed the traitor in a creative or reflective way.

Vigilantes got a bad rap when Vigilante SuperCop Powergamers started to emerge, when any little cry for help had more than enough volunteers rushing to enact some lethal punishment upon the supposed offender. This got a huge backlash once it became problematic, and it actually mostly died out shortly after. It seems established that nobody likes a vigilante that; Breaks into sec, steals or makes sec or traitor level gear, and then goes hunting for anyone they can find an excuse to kill.

Meanwhile, the vigilante who was attacked earlier by the traitor - who saw the traitor with traitor gear actively trying to murder -- He should be well within his rights in hunting the traitor at some later point, be it for revenge, out of annoyance, reason to believe they're still a target, or simply because nobody else seems competent in handling what has become a station-wide threat. Wizards, Nuke-ops, and any visibly supernatural hostiles should be harmed by crew any chance they can get, so long as there isn't any collateral damage. To ignore these threats or hope that some representative from the Sec department is around to save you is counter-intuitive to survival. Hell even some guy boasting on the radio that the last 2 explosions that ruined departments were his doing -- he should probably be knocked over and searched by anyone that doesn't want to explode. Voice changers make it un-cool to kill somebody based on a terrorism claim, but you've certainly got reason to suspect and search. (and fear!)

On a side note,
I need to connect something to the vigilante/crew/traitor relationship that seems to be muddying the waters for admin/player interactions. Check this out -

One round, I join late. I see a dead wizard laying in mechanics. I strip his robe and don his clothes, and suddenly a crewmember breaks into the room and wordlessly empties a phaser clip into me. Enough shots missed that I avoided crit. The wizards pack had a egun inside, which I used to lazer the shit outta my assailant with. I coulda just stunned him but the fact he ran into the room guns blaring and fast-stepping led me to feel that he wasn't entitled to anything so nice. His actions earned him his dues.

Lets review: The wizard was already dead in the same room with me, I lacked a beard, the body had a beard, and the wizard was stated to be dead on the radio.
A non antag crewman breaks in, and despite all this information available to him -- he confidently and violently puts all hes got into rapidly dropping me, all without a word.

Next thing I know I get an admin asking me about this, much to my surprise.
Why surprise when I had just murdered a likely non-antag crewman?

Well... given his behavior I could have assumed him to be an antag. The only thing about this character I've seen is "aggressive attempted murderer" Still, I had a gut feeling that he wasn't.
Well... if the guy bothered to A-help me, then obviously he wasn't expecting me to be an antag, right? Cause if he thought I was a wizard, he'd have taken his death and not a-helped right? So whats he doing?
Well...if the guy I murdered in self defense knew I wasn't an antag -- then why the fuck did he run in guns blazing like you only do when your target is a confirmed antag?
How often do crew wear dead wizards robes? Hmmm... what the fuck was HE thinking then??

Fortunately the admin saw it my way, and I was actually told that I was fine and legit. I was asked to try not to kill if I can, but was right in behaving as I did and was not in trouble.

To connect this to present issues, I think we need to be aware of such A-help "setups" that are essentially a trigger happy player looking for any excuse to kill, then looking for any excuse to A-help. This kind of behavior makes it tough on admins to judge whether a vigilante is being legit or shit. This type of behavior triggers general hate toward all vigilantes, when honestly we need players willing to fight back against confirmed antags that have an established character history of general malice or destruction.

[Frank_Stein]

I think it might be helpful if there were more ways of subduing someone non-lethally. The most we got is putting someone in a choke hold and keeping them unconscious until you can get them into a locker or something.

---

To connect this to present issues, I think we need to be aware of such A-help "setups" that are essentially a trigger happy player looking for any excuse to kill, then looking for any excuse to A-help. This kind of behavior makes it tough on admins to judge whether a vigilante is being legit or shit. This type of behavior triggers general hate toward all vigilantes, when honestly we need players willing to fight back against confirmed antags that have an established character history of general malice or destruction.

Yeah. I had a traitor round recently where a scientist was just lubing the floors and trying to stuff people into lockers, for no particular reason. I beat them off, and they kept following me, and eventually I waved an e-bow at them. After that point they just made it their mission to take me out, despite me not really doing anything to them or the station at large. They almost ruined the gimmick I did later where I sleep darted someone in the horse mask while wearing safari gear (I was going to sell the Horse Beast to the British Museum and gain fame)

I kinda think, that I ended up playing into their hand with that. That they were just harassing people until they got someone that would use their traitor gear to fight back. That kind of valid fishing is shitty, and I think is why people will just rampage when any other kind of activity leads to getting stomped people that just want to kill you and get free traitor gear.

[Vitatroll]

Again, I think the station is overly concerned with the 'antag's fun'. No, even beyond that -- we've just gone soft. We don't even chuck rule breakers out airlocks anymore. That is, bigots and creep don't get mauled the minute they spout their shit. We cry to admins or try to 'teach' them why what they are doing is wrong. We've become kindergarten teachers.

I like that the softness allows for more elaborate situations, but at what cost.

[babayetu83]

Again, I think the station is overly concerned with the 'antag's fun'. No, even beyond that -- we've just gone soft. We don't even chuck rule breakers out airlocks anymore. That is, bigots and creep don't get mauled the minute they spout their shit. We cry to admins or try to 'teach' them why what they are doing is wrong. We've become kindergarten teachers.

I like that the softness allows for more elaborate situations, but at what cost.

make goon great again