Rampages

[Ed Venture]

Lately I've been seeing a disturbing level of admin intervention (a glitch fest bombing jay wolff and the macho man smiting in the appeal) in how people choose to use their antagonist rounds. Admins shouldnt be in the business of policing styles of play that are allowed and encouraged under the rules.

I also agree that this should stop.

[hipBEE]

I dunno, I'm pretty OK with being messed with if I'm rampaging or whatever.

[Frank_Stein]

I definitely agree with that antags should get a blank check on what they decide to do, though I agree with Houka and Mageziya. Loud, obvious crimes with lots of witnesses, lots of evidence is the way to go. Leave bodies, let your victims get cloned/borged. Give em time to rebuild and rally again.

If you killed someone and let them come back, they will defintely be giving you the opposition you want.

[hipBEE]

it would be nice though to see people try to complete their objectives once in a while.

[SuperbDingaling]

The thing about rampages is that sometimes if you do want to complete your objectives, you're damn near required to go on a tirade. Like having to Hijack or kill all other antags.

[Grek]

http://wiki.ss13.co/Rules#Confirmed_enemy_role
+
http://wiki.ss13.co/Rules#Different_admi...ent_styles


is why people don't fight back. The rules outright say that if you don't personally see them with their PDA unlocked, haven't personally seen a blood test, didn't see personally them holding a traitor item, etc. you can't kill them. Guy chasing you with a flamethrower? Best just run away and try to ignore it, because there's a good chance the admins will grump at you too for whatever self defense happens as a result! AI shouting that George Melons is a ling eating the Captain? You gotta cuff him and drag him to medbay for the blood test (and get stung on the way), just in case the AI is lying/stupid/rogue. Or so the perception goes, at least. Enforcement usually nowhere near this level of anal retension in practice, but the exact line varies from admin to admin. I know I've been yelled at by one admin for flashing someone and tossing them down and disposals for repeatedly trying to bust up my office, but then saw a different admin advocate doing that exact same thing in deadchat a month later.

Officially dropping the standard of evidence down from Confirmed Enemy Role to Reasonable Suspicion would encourage people to do something about rampages.

[Nnystyxx]

I remember pointing out that the changeling? "lynch mob" objective seemed like a really stupid, ban-inducing idea because anybody that lynched anybody on suspicion would almost CERTAINLY be banned immediately for murder as a non-antag etc. etc. People are -scared- of fighting back, not because they'll lose, but because the Great Admin Gods will come down on them because it was the wrong guy, or they weren't REALLY going for blood, and so on, and so on. There's no consistent basis for what you can and can't get away with when it comes to defending yourself and what might be reasonable in one second is ban material in another.

tl;dr: people don't fight back cause they'll get sent to the shadow realm instantaneously if they do it wrong/get the wrong guy, etc., what Grek and ISaidNo said
edit: also, fingerprints? like, really? does anyone really actively do detective work nowadays + what's wrong with a little paranoia if somebody decided to PICK UP AND CARRY AROUND CONTRABAND THEY FOUND rather than reporting it to the proper channels

[ISaidNo]

edit: also, fingerprints? like, really? does anyone really actively do detective work nowadays + what's wrong with a little paranoia if somebody decided to PICK UP AND CARRY AROUND CONTRABAND THEY FOUND rather than reporting it to the proper channels

I tried a few rounds of detective the other day trying to play to its actual function.
I can see why detective is just the job people pick to have a gun, because holy mother of fuck actually trying to do forensics and detective work is so frustrating shitty it makes playing as AI look about as stressful as watching a Bob Ross video.

1) Taken out by some silent douche with a wrestling belt while following a lead I got from a corpse
2) Spent most of a round chasing someone who turned out to be a random non-antag mischiefer uploading laws to the AI, result: station exploded to shit by antag I COULD have been tracking
3) Following another corpse lead - acid spit, round over
4) Trying to follow leads and getting wires crossed because of people asking me to come check out X thing they found, result: didn't find jack shit cos i got confused by volume

so don't say jack shit about fingerprints, the whole forensics system is just yet another game system you're going to get to use for two seconds before someone wipes your ass out in ten seconds flat

that and detectives who successfully pull their jobs off are just "supercops" im sure

[Grek]

I have been that supercop detective. Changelings get SO ANGRY when you inform a competent sec their prints were found are on a husk, then they get stunned, blood tested and gibbered by 5 guys with stun batons. But that's pretty much what you have to do in order to take out a changeling "properly" under the rules.

[Ed Venture]

Well it's a good idea to find out if you are really dealing with a changeling or any other antag for that matter before you kill them. I don't buy that people don't know if a person is a antag since if someone is rampaging I think it's safe to assume they are a antag and therefor safe to kill.

Also I scan for finger prints all the time. It's super useful when you know a antag is out there and you are looking for clues.

I think it's clear when it's okay to kill someone in self defense and if the player has a body count when you encounter them then it's even clearer that you are in a do or die situation and the way I view it if you try to kill someone don't be surprised when they kill you.

Also if you do kill in self defense and you were not sure if your attacker was not a antag then to be safe adminhelp your point of view soon as you can while in game.

[Noah Buttes]

I used to play detective all the time, and I got pretty good at figuring out forensics stuff.

The trick is to pretend to be as incompetent as possible while gathering evidence, and then go all Sherlock Holmes when you get all the evidence you need.

[Grek]

Well it's a good idea to find out if you are really dealing with a changeling or any other antag for that matter before you kill them. I don't buy that people don't know if a person is a antag since if someone is rampaging I think it's safe to assume they are a antag and therefor safe to kill.

Its not really self defense that's a problem, so much as proactive other-defense. If you hear someone stammer out, "Help ling medbay!" over the radio, do you drop everything and go investigate, or do you ignore it? By the time you get there, they'll probably already be absorbed. There's no corpse to clone. If only one or two people arrive to investigate, or these people aren't well armed, the ling will kill the investigators and eat them, getting even more powerful. Even if enough people do arrive, the ling can probably escape and unless you actually see the changling absorbing someone, you can't just detain everyone for blood tests without risking the admins (and probably the crew) shitting on you for metagaming/tryharding.

After a while, people just start ignoring calls for help and start carrying instant death chem beakers for self defense. After all, nobody else is coming, so you need something that can one shot a ling in 3 seconds or less regardless of how cheap or exploity your answer is.

[Nnystyxx]

Ling is pretty buff, too, though I don't recall to the full extent. (other than all those times I wandered into maint and got instantly spit-ripperoni'd)

[Vitatroll]

The ban appeal made me cock my head until I saw the comment about antag fishing. If the only time you see a person is when they're an antag then something is wrong.

As for rampages: it depends on the person. I like it when people like Jay, Oar, or Woody do rampages. Quick, loud, and the shuttle will come when appropriate. On the flipside I've seen a captain run a taser+belt rampage against less than 5 people during a late night round, then wait for 30 minutes before calling the shuttle. Or that occasional asshat who keeps recalling the shuttle for 2 hours to hunt that one braindead guy who hid in a closet. I hate that shit.

When it comes to stopping rampages it's a pain in the ass. Some combos are nigh unstoppable outside of bombing them or being a nerd. Hell, tasers are among the most dangerous things out there. Having a couple basically removes the treat of anyone who doesn't have a taser, laser, human smes, large quantities of meth, or ace-level robustness.

I'm a pretty big offender of not fighting back to the full extent that I could. I'm also bad at ignoring murders. The former is because I'm perpetually tired and usually working; this is why you don't see me play security, AI, or any antag roles, and why I'm often dead 10 minutes in. The latter is because I'm horrible at gauging friend or foe. I will invariably choose the wrong side and believe every like told. The only times I attack someone is usually because they have a) already half killed me, b) are showing inhuman traits, c) the radio told me to... but let's be honest, that last one is a lie because nobody listens to the radio.

As an aside, I would ask that security not be expected to arrest rampagers. If somebody whines the moment you catch them, begs to be let go, demands their gear back, claims false arrest -- etc, chuck the fucker out an airlock. We're far too concerned with the 'antag's fun'. If they got caught then it's their own fault. It's the price of going loud. It's also part of the fun, imo.

[Megapaco]

[quote pid='75049' dateline='1466814653']
edireally also, fingerprints? like, really? does anyone really actively do detective work nowadays + what's wrong with a little paranoia if somebody decided to PICK UP AND CARRY AROUND CONTRABAND THEY FOUND rather than reporting it to the proper channels

[/quote]

Not really related but finger print investigation is extremely underrated. I was able to find and slay a changeling the other day as HoS by simply just taking note of finger prints on changeling victims.