IRC rules

[popecrunch]

Hokay, it's long past time to hammer out a basic set of 'this is and is not okay in IRC' since currently it's so far up to individual interpretation that we've been screaming at each other for three days over an irc ban.  Christ Jesus we're all morons.

PROPOSAL: http://wiki.ss13.co/Talk:Rules#IRC_rules

I'm giving this the weekend for admins to see it and propose changes, then I'll post a thread in the player forums about it, give THAT a few days for discussion and debate, then toss whatever we all agree on on the actual rules page, toss a link in the irc topic, and boom done.

The general idea behind the rules is that IRC is neither a safe space, nor the Wild West.  We're not going to ask that people be nice to each other, but we're going to insist they treat each other with simple human respect.  We're not going to outlaw discussion of unpopular or controversial opinions no matter how ass-headed they are, as long as they are able to have those discussions without being savages to each other.

Please, please, please discuss and suggest changes.  I really don't want this to get thrown up exactly as I wrote it, I am uncomfortable with the idea of basically being 'yo call me moses because here are some commandments'.

[Huff H Law]

The second rule about not breaking synirc's rules is sort of unneeded. So is the 4th about teaching other people to cheat, since, unless I'm really missing some juicy things while I'm asleep, it hasn't happened once yet.

Also the "offer some respect" is, I feel, worded poorly. We don't need to respect anyone, I don't exactly want respect from the players just because I'm an admin. It'd probably be better worded like:

"5. Don't use slurs." And just leave out that bit about respect. To hell with respect.
"6. Be respectful of the channel. If you feel like talking about particularly controversial topics like (including but not limited to current politics, racial tensions, religious freedom) you are expected to take it elsewhere if an admin tells you to." Though didn't people already do this?
The seventh one is less of a rule and more general life advice, kind of out of place to put in a rules page.
"8. Kicks are for jokes more often than not, we fully expect you to immediately rejoin."
"9. Sometimes the chat goes into strange and weird places, unlike the game servers we are far more lenient on crass and uncomfortable topics in IRC, you will not be banned for such topics unless they are actually against human decency."

I dunno though, it seems like these rules are mainly: No IC in IRC, do what an admin tells you if they tell you to knock something off, things are crass on IRC. It seems like we mainly need a list of things admins will ban you for, rather than a list of suggestions for how you can talk on IRC.

[popecrunch]

I used the words 'be respectful' repeatedly specifically to underline the fact that the rules aren't intended to create an arbitrary difference between admins and non-admins: everybody, admins and nonadmins alike, are expected to treat each other with respect. Not sir-n-ma'am style respect, but 'can we please remember that there are actual people behind the words on the screen and use some basic human civility, thank'

I feel like omitting the language about being respectful, the rules seem more like 'do this because we say so' and less 'do this because it's decent human behavior, you apes'. I really really want to avoid a list of THIS WILL GET YOU BANNED: 1 2 3 because then we're just begging someone to come up with 4.

[bubs]

I don't agree with these suggestions hufflaw

The second rule about not breaking synirc's rules is sort of unneeded. So is the 4th about teaching other people to cheat, since, unless I'm really missing some juicy things while I'm asleep, it hasn't happened once yet.

I'm sure we've had people come in the server and be like "oh man i just found a crazy bug if you do this and this it'll crash the whole whatever", and while it probably isn't necessary to talk about synirc's rules, I also can't see a harm in it. We don't want our channel getting banned for people posting piracy or anything, and since we've decided that it's become necessary to codify this shit, we need to be sure to try to include as many relevant things as possible, because now that there's a list of rules there's gonna be rules lawyers.

Also the "offer some respect" is, I feel, worded poorly. We don't need to respect anyone, I don't exactly want respect from the players just because I'm an admin. It'd probably be better worded like:

"5. Don't use slurs." And just leave out that bit about respect. To hell with respect.

It's just a way of saying "don't be an asshole all the time"

"6. Be respectful of the channel. If you feel like talking about particularly controversial topics like (including but not limited to current politics, racial tensions, religious freedom) you are expected to take it elsewhere if an admin tells you to." Though didn't people already do this?

No they get banned. In all seriousness, some people have done this and sometimes it does happen, but these rules are for us as well. This is a subtle way to say "Don't ban people for talking about stuff, ask them to take it outside and only ban them once they start being destructive and/or obstructing dickheads"

The seventh one is less of a rule and more general life advice, kind of out of place to put in a rules page.

Agreed.

"8. Kicks are for jokes more often than not, we fully expect you to immediately rejoin."

A lot of the time kicks are jokes, but sometimes they aren't and we don't want people getting confused. I think its best to let them use their judgement to figure this stuff out. Saying "we kick people all the time as a laugh" is a bit different than "most kicks are jokes". It could lead a player to get kicked and not take it as a serious warning, despite it maybe being one.

"9. Sometimes the chat goes into strange and weird places, unlike the game servers we are far more lenient on crass and uncomfortable topics in IRC, you will not be banned for such topics unless they are actually against human decency."

Vague and dangerous, this leaves it up to peoples judgement as to what makes a Topic "against human decency". I think this is pretty much covered by the earlier "if an admin tells you to shut up, shut up" rule.

I dunno though, it seems like these rules are mainly: No IC in IRC, do what an admin tells you if they tell you to knock something off, things are crass on IRC. It seems like we mainly need a list of things admins will ban you for, rather than a list of suggestions for how you can talk on IRC.

I prefer a big list fulla crazy catchalls so that we can point to it whenever we want and not have people try to weasel their way out of it by waving the rules in our face. The more specific we get, the more we have to fight against our own rules.

[Marquesas]

I prefer a big list fulla crazy catchalls so that we can point to it whenever we want and not have people try to weasel their way out of it by waving the rules in our face. The more specific we get, the more we have to fight against our own rules.

Ugh.

[bubs]

You got something to say or are you just being a cunt like always

Edit: never mind, if someone is gonna act like that I don't wanna mislead them into thinking their opinion has value.
If you seriously think I'm trying to set up an abusable framework so we can be assholes, you obviously don't know me very well.

[Marquesas]

I'm not saying we're going to abuse it, but ultimately, a general ruleset is just as up to discretion as the current one is, and the whole reason for this debate is that the IRC rules are unclear if existent at all. In light of the fact that several IRC people are concerned at the moment about things, going for a general ruleset just makes it look like we're setting ourselves up to legalize strict policing. It's not a good move in my worthless opinion, especially not in the current climate.

[HukHukHuk]

I like the big framework of stuff that cant really be lawyered, it will require the team to be fairly thick skinned and willing to bring down the hammer even if that admin happens to agree with/sympathize with the person being an asshat. I like that and honestly it covers mostly everything in a broad sweeping motion, My opinion is to combine 3 and 4 into a single rule regarding Channel/Game Admins since we're the same team and make that rule 1.
A new rule 8 something like, These rules are to set up a framework of basic human decency in the IRC channel and not censor speech, most of the time if you cross the line you will be told to knock it off, and maybe kicked with a note to stop pushing it if you keep going. Bans will be reserved for only the worst cases.

[popecrunch]

I am SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE making 'respect the admins' rule one because that implies it's the most important, and i don't want to give even the subconscious suggestion that ADMINS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU

Okay, did some jiggering:

1) NO IC IN OOC. Don't talk about the current round in IRC.
2) Be respectful of others. You will not be banned from the channel for expressing opinions, so long as you are able to express those opinions in a respectful fashion: Don't use slurs, racial or otherwise, even ironically. Don't attack people for their opinions.
3) Be respectful of the admins. An exhaustive list of every situation where someone with an @ might be grumping at you is impossible and disingenuous, so if an admin is grumping at you and asking you to stop talking in a given fashion or about a given topic, knock it off. These rules are intended to be more of an overview than a complete list of statutes. Also, don't discuss exactly how to exploit game mechanics or get around our security systems - if you have a bug to report, there are other venues. Basically don't teach people to cheat.
4) Be respectful of the channel. Some conversation topics (including but not limited to current politics, racial tensions, religious freedom) are extremely volatile and controversial by their very nature, so if an admin requests that a conversation not take place in the channel, take it elsewhere. You're always free to make a new channel or carry on the conversation in PM, we are neither interested nor able to police what goes on in PM or in other channels.
5) Be respectful of the IRC network. Basically don't break Synirc's rules. Come on.
6) Tread VERY CAREFULLY with trolling or 'devil's advocate' stuff. There's a fine line between 'making the conversation interesting or hilarious' and 'being a thundering butthead' and you generally only find out you've tripped over it when people are screaming at you.
7) Don't take things too seriously. Don't expect trigger warnings, don't assume every link is going to be safe for work / school / your immortal soul (though please don't post outright porn, and tagging NWS links is Strongly Encouraged), and we kick people all the time for shiggles. (You can rejoin immediately after.)
8) These rules are to set up a framework of basic human decency in the IRC channel and NOT to censor speech. Most of the time, if you cross the line you will simply be told to knock it off, and maybe kicked with a note to stop pushing it if you keep going. Bans will be reserved for only the worst cases.

[Huff H Law]

Sounds good. Quick question though since I'm an admin: are we cool with someone saying something to the effect of "I believe Mexicans are all lazy and mainly steal our jobs" in that we don't ban them unless they're trying to start a fight or it starts being a shitstorm in which case I ask everyone involved to take it somewhere else and let the person believe what they will and not ban them?

Kind of want to get a feel for this.

[HukHukHuk]

I mean we don't have to be cool with their shitty opinions, but if its purposely inflammatory with no other purpose, go ahead and tell em to knock it off and take it elsewhere, if they wont quit, kick em, if they come back to do it again after all that, no one's gonna get on your case for banning them then I think. If you gotta, make a pastebin with the logs just in case

[popecrunch]

I mean we don't have to be cool with their shitty opinions, but if its purposely inflammatory with no other purpose, go ahead and tell em to knock it off and take it elsewhere, if they wont quit, kick em, if they come back to do it again after all that, no one's gonna get on your case for banning them then I think. If you gotta, make a pastebin with the logs just in case

basically this

[popecrunch]

Okay, it looks like this is in good shape to kick over to the player side of the forums for possible input.

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Hello forums! Please take a gander at the proposed IRC rules and offer some input. THANK YOU DARLINGS

[69andahalf]

Okay, it looks like this is in good shape to kick over to the player side of the forums for possible input.

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Hello forums! Please take a gander at the proposed IRC rules and offer some input.  THANK YOU DARLINGS

They look good, but should they be posted somewhere more noticeable? I'm not sure how other IRC channels do it, but it would be hard to follow rules that someone may not know exist or where to find them.

[popecrunch]

When the language is decided on, they'll be added to the rules page on the wiki and there will be a link in the channel topic.