Security Thread 4.0: Oh no

[Vitatroll]

(edit: The origin of this topic was me going mostly off-topic in a thread. Now my post is a thread. Actually had nothing to do with vigilantism outside of an anecdote used. RIP. Original title was Security Thread 4.0: Vigilantism and You)

(edit: This is in regards to secoffs. They get flak for using too much force.) If a traitor goes on a stim-fueled csaber rampage I'm not sure what the point of arresting them is. I say kill em'. You can't reform em'. 19 out of 20 times they just rampage when released. There's just no incentive to arrest any of those guys. I dunno, maybe I'm just hitler.

I always figured genpop was for assholes and flavor arrests. This being goon, arresting someone for BnE, Public Intoxication, Small Explosions, etc.,  will likely get a riot along with shouts of sec being compromised. Not sure what to do about it because it's a playerbase thing. There's a reason why we have rounds with 40 people and no sec. It's us. We're shit. We probably need to do something about that.

As I've stated before I actually see antags wishing there were more vigilantes around. Two in my memory actually missed glasses full of sarin -- anything to dull the boredom of murder. This is a problem.

Okay the last half of that is off-topic sorta but you get the point I'm sure. Sec needs a hand. Several, infact.

[Ed Venture]

One last thing all I really want is these windows being added. Then my biggest issue will be solved.

The gen pop cell should be relatively easy to break out of. Making it fort fucking knox is a shit idea. We want to encourage criming for traitors and not a situation of complete lockdown.

A table or two and a glass window is fine. Its also good to have a wall against maint tunnela ve.

Except for one I said I don't want the brig to be impossible to escape from. Another thing there are other ways besides the way i mentioned to escape the brig then the one I had a issue with. The one I have a issue with is far too easy and requires the least amount of effort to do. It's also the only way I've seen people use since I've come back. I just think you should have to try and escape security is all.

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If a traitor goes on a stim-fueled csaber rampage I'm not sure what the point of arresting them is. I say kill em'. You can't reform em'. 19 out of 20 times they just rampage when released. There's just no incentive to arrest any of those guys. I dunno, maybe I'm just hitler.

I always figured genpop was for assholes and flavor arrests. This being goon, arresting someone for BnE, Public Intoxication, Small Explosions, etc.,  will likely get a riot along with shouts of sec being compromised. Not sure what to do about it because it's a playerbase thing. There's a reason why we have rounds with 40 people and no sec. It's us. We're shit. We probably need to do something about that.

As I've stated before I actually see antags wishing there were more vigilantes around. Two in my memory actually missed glasses full of sarin -- anything to dull the boredom of murder. This is a problem.

Okay the last half of that is off-topic sorta but you get the point I'm sure. Sec needs a hand. Several, infact.

Not sure I agree with some of the things you said but I do agree with most of it and you for sure have a point. I play security almost all the time and I'm lucky if I ge two or three other officers with me.

[Huff H Law]

Since the thread for brig suggestions isn't the place for this I guess it goes here.

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Anyway yeah I don't get why vigilantism is frowned upon.

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And another thing that really grinds my gears: people that get arrested and then just stand there, doing nothing for the entire sentence! At least complain to the crew over the radio or talk to someone over the radio, jeeze.

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Oh yeah and I arrest people all the time, I don't even use the name people know me by! And people don't riot in the streets it turns out!

[Ed Venture]

Help is also welcome I just hate when a vilgilate thinks he knows better then anyone else and takes things way too far. There was a time where lots of people acted this way and I get why people don't like them with the memory in the back of their mind. I'm all for someone helping sec out as long as they don't ditch their job completely or go full super cop

[Huff H Law]

I think I meant more like, if you see someone beating someone else up to death then you should be encouraged to go help. Or if you see someone covered in blood, or someone carrying a bomb, or whatever. I guess the problem is that those people that help turn out to be scientists that have insta-kill beakers, which would make things boring.

[Sundance]

Define vigilante behavior.

Alot of people think that some guy going up to a traitor and splashing him with sarin because he's killing literally everything he sees is vigilante behavior. That's not vigilantism. That's retribution, and by extension; self defense.

Vigilante behavior is people who at round start have an idea in their head that the man twirling his traitor moustache is "valid" and will break into sec just to get a taser to kill him. Or because they noticed a traitor put something into their bag that's syndicate, yep valid salad. These are the same assholes who take traitors who are cuffed and being dragged by security just so they can space them. 

We should never be encouraging any form of vigilante behavior. We should be encouraging people to join security, or if they have a traitor down, encourage them to hand it over to security. Because processing, allow the traitor to have their plan B when they get arrested, interrogation done properly is far more fun than just spacing the dude.

I am irked that this thread needs to exist.

[Vitatroll]

Ow. That wasn't really formatted for a topic-leading post. Ah well, it's what I get for being too lazy to make a topic.

Vigilantes: My anecdote on that was just to show the state we're in. No idea how it got to be the focus of things. The state: Security is so lacking these days that antags wish more vigilantes were around. Desperate times. Not the point of my post though.

The points of my initial post:

1) Not really a point but I just don't know what genpop is used for. I've always viewed it as a joke. As in, I think the only reason it exists is so jailbreaks can happen. This somewhat lost it's meaning with our tanking population. If there's a super violent perp then you throw them in solitary, right?


2) I don't understand why secoffs are yelled at for killing mass murderers. Even if they arrest those guys they just suicide 9 times outta 10. Why do they get scrutinized when rando staff assistant can pipebomb a baddie and get 'oh okay that's nice'? (This was in response to the topic I posted in. Well, vaguely)

3) I just feel there's some unfair notion of perfection forced upon secoffs. It's like they have extra restrictions thrust upon them that others don't have. It's weird and gives the job a bad feel.


This wasn't meant to be an idea post so I don't really have any ideas prepared. Is there anything we can do to make sec more fun to play? To make their round easier? Considering sec is almost half of the most popular aspect of a station, antag vs station, I think the department should be given special attention.

[Mageziya]

Reminder that there's a tip that can show at roundstart that says something along the lines of: "Never trust a vigilante, they're probably breaking all sorts of rules too."

In general though, there's been a massive culture shift. People don't want to be assholes, more-so people are afraid of being assholes. Taking someone out of the game by killing them is now frowned upon. In old goon, the joy got people out of the game was beating the crap out of people and murdering them. Everyone was looking for a justification to kill someone, whilst also being on the look out for people trying to kill them or others, in part because that gave that justification to kill someone. It was valid hunting. It may have been shit, and and created the reputation that goon still has trouble shaking, but it in all its shitness it made things fun.

It's just that there's no conflict now. The traditional relationship was that antags are supposed to create the conflict, but they can only do so much. Everyone is a afraid of being an asshole, so most people just choose ignore anything suspicious that they see happening, in part because of the effort it takes, and suspicions being false just makes the person seem mean. It's reached a point where I'm fairly sure that many new players don't even know what suspicious behavior looks like anymore. I had a chat with a group of new players in dead chat ~2-3 weeks ago who didn't know what a sleepy pen was, though that's just biased anecdotal evidence.

I'm not sure what there is to fix the situation, per se. It seems that a balance can never really be found. If we get people to become more responsive and fight antagonists as a whole, it would lean back towards the extreme style of old goon. At that point it would then be corrected again and lean back towards where we are today, and would keep happening until goon dies.

[Ed Venture]

I'm glad I never really got changed from the shift. As Security I'm harsh as I can be depending on the crime and even though it gets me alot a shit from other players and that's ok every single Security player plays the role differently but I do kill arrested antags if I deem it right but some people give a security player so much backlash that they never play the role again. That's why no one plays the role anymore imo. As a antag I don't care if I ruin someone else's round mostly due because most people won't care if they ruin mine. Myself personal I'll only turn a blind eye to suspicious activity if it's in the first 15 minutes of a round. I may be a giant jerk but I know the feeling all too well when you get your antag round ruined before it began, hell I'm pretty sure we all have.

There is no correct answer things only shift cause people started being the change they wanted to see on goon and that's the best way to go about it I think. Be the change you want to see right now and others will either do the same or follow your example.

Don't be afraid to be a asshole sometimes no matter what you do you are going to make someone angry and I mean really angry at some point. It's ok to avoid those situations but don't try to completely shy away from it cause it's impossible. Embrace it.

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Also I agree antags that bomb a area killing people as a result or a antag that has killed or there is evidence that they are going to kill should get the worst punishment and sometimes that includes death. I hate when security gives a antag a pat on the back with a "Give it another go!" as they wave good bye. Just keep in mind there are many ways to kill a person and death can be fun for both parties.

[Mageziya]

I'll just quickly elaborate why I don't play sec, since it's relevant.

When I played sec for about a week, this was impression I got: It's hard and unfun. Basically, a lot of work and no reward. I've gone back a few times and tend to regret it.

It's cause its such a pain in the ass to actually find and/or effectively deal with antagonists, and then there's the fear of accidentally interpreting the victim of the crime as guilty and then dealing with that fallout.. Fumbling around with misdemeanor crimes takes a minimum of 10 minutes for a million different reasons which just gives no reason to give them out to anyone but people who are genuinely assholes in normal functioning, and those are the kind of people who are a nightmare to deal with as sec. Then, there's the lull times in between conflicts, and the lull at the start, where it can take upwards of 30 minutes before there's anything you can respond to.

I contemplate playing it every now and then, and even try it, but then I get sick of it after a few bouts with it. I also have my jobs system set where all the jobs I want to play are on medium and so few people play sec that setting it to medium means that I'll end up playing it every round until I'm burnt out and set it back to low priority.

[RAWK_LAWBSTAR]

If you want people to play sec you're going to have to make it a tad easier to actually do the job.

[Ed Venture]

If you want people to play sec you're going to have to make it a tad easier to actually do the job.

The only way security can be made easier is if the crimer's arrested themselves. To play Security your going to have to be a tad robust and able to put up with alot of shit. NO amount of dumbing down will ever change that.

Plus with all the tools Security has now it can be easy as hell to play sometimes. I think the issue around that is most players are not aware of the tools they have. Like for example the port-a-brig. Even with it getting a PDA function the thing hardly gets used. Also Security can be hard if you or your teammates can't use teamwork or not be shit. Trying to take care of a shit officer while other things are going down can be such a headache

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Also It's easy to say "make it easier to play" without throwing any suggestions on how it should be made easier.

[Frank_Stein]

I dunno. I like playing as Sec, and a big part of how I play it is by not trying to be catching bad guys all the time. I consider the role more about being the glue that holds the station together, and responding to the aftermath of traitor actions; Getting the bodies to cloning, sealing of breaches, descalating hostile situations. In the down time I like to just be chummy with the crew.

[Noah Buttes]

I dunno. I like playing as Sec, and a big part of how I play it is by not trying to be catching bad guys all the time. I consider the role more about being the glue that holds the station together, and responding to the aftermath of traitor actions; Getting the bodies to cloning, sealing of breaches, descalating hostile situations. In the down time I like to just be chummy with the crew.

This is how security is meant to be played during most rounds.

[Xeram]

Hello yes, I am a fairly robust dude and I am here to give my reasons why I avoid ever touching security like it's a plague-riddled light grenade.

It really all comes down to one fairly simple reason: If you are security, literally everyone who isn't security, barring sometimes the Cap or HoP, are pre-dispositioned to being as much of an annoying pain in the ass as they physically can be, even if it results in the death of them and everyone around them. If I want to help protect the station/keep people alive, I play HoP or Captain, as I notice neither of these two have that same bullshit mentality aimed at them.

Literally any time I play security, whether it's a traitor murdering dudes or just two nerds in a fight I'm trying to break up, the moment I've stunned one of them or have someone cuffed and I'm bringing them to sec/just away from eachother for a second so they can talk things out, every damn crewmember in the area who isn't sec starts doing everything they can to fuck me up and let the guy go free, even if they weren't previously involved. Whether it's dragging the cuffed dudes away trying to uncuff them or trying to steal my gear while I have them barely detained, as long as I'm sec and not just some vig with a gun or something, the crew tries to do everything in it's power to fuck with sec. God forbid I tase or flash one of these idiots doing this, because next thing I know once I have that traitor or the two belligerents in sec, there's a small greytide mob outside or intercepting me on the way.

Did I mention shit like this seems only to happen when I play sec? Because I don't think I have. I can be literally anything else on the station armed just as well if not better than security, yet all this shit only happens if I actually play as a security officer.

I can't detain 4 people at once all on my own, I can't stop and type to call for backup usually, I only have limited ammo/stun charges/flashes, and I can't beat the everloving shit out of the idiots who keep trying to get in the way lest I have a lynch mob following me the rest of the round. All in all, why the hell play security if I could just be anything else and more oft than not end up with the same ability as them, minus the memetic trigger that starting as a sec officer seems to have that causes people to uncontrollably be a pain in the ass in every way possible?

I don't even remember the last time I killed anything that wasn't a nuke ops as sec. Then again, most of my sec rounds are me finally getting over how terrible sec was last time, playing it for one round, having the above happen constantly untill I'm dead, then never touching it again for months/years.