Random space laws.

[Sundance]

A lot of arguments revolve around either 'Nobody cares' or 'People will abuse it'. Not sure we should really have half of the stuff we do if that's the case. It's unfortunate that those are the only two scenarios that can come out of Security chases and willful disregard for the law.

But alright, fair enough. I can respect the community's opinion that it may not be as good of an idea as it sounded in my head.

I think the issue isn't that it's A: "nobody cares" or B: "people will abuse it"
If nobody cares, no harms done in adding it.
If people will abuse it, weed out the shit that does.

The issue isn't A and B alone, but both. It's both that makes this issue iffy. I understand that security should be made more fun and giving them randomized laws but I feel like that randomization undermines security by some sec officers ignoring it and then trying to protect the crew while others are stepping on their toes by following the laws. It'd make an unnecessary hostility between officers, and honestly there should be more a drive to make security work together, not apart. I'd like to see more spy tools and ways of communication like wanted posters. I find it hard to back this idea.

[BaneOfGiygas]

See, the problem of having a security team that brigs people in possession of tomatoes is that I foresee it causing a lot of chaos and hideously distracting security from actual antagonists or other such important shit, especially if the rest of the crew catches on and starts flinging tomatoes at the security officers or whatever. It's silly, but I really don't think it's something that should be present every single rounds. There are times when security should be funny and whimsical, and there are times when security needs to crack the fuck down on some folks. Their job is to preserve some vague semblance of order among the station and serve as a direct opposition to antagonists, but this sort of system would heavily downplay that and instead turn them into the guys who are chasing after people for not having a hat on or whatever. Funny, but unnecessary and ultimately detrimental.

That's why I really like Frank_Stein's suggestion, because it gives the system a dynamic approach that lets security switch between being the no-nonsense super squad and the shenanigan-fueled mall cops depending on the circumstance. Antagonists are infinitely varied in their approach to being antagonists, and security should likewise be just as dynamic. The idea of random space laws would impose ultimately arbitrary guidelines for the security team and would no doubt cause absolute hell when one officer decides to follow them while two other officers disregard it.

[Vitatroll]

It's not bad. It's the laws that are important. Sec following through on a law banning tomatoes will immediately draw tomato fire to every corner of the station, and this will likely draw more attention from sec than murder does for some reason. Everybody must wear shoes? Well, shoe theft will go up, but the salinity won't rise that much.

I like the idea of discussing it, but we'll just be theorizing how people will act. Instead of that, why not have one of you mins send in a CentComm message about new regulations being passed and see how it goes from there? Playtesting is always quicker.

[Frank_Stein]

Suggested default Sec laws. Obviously it's more of a guideline than a strict set of rules. The captain could always make an anti-tomato law after getting the clown throws one at them and toss out all the rest, or just plain old dirty cops.

1. Serve the public trust (Set a good image. Make it so people can trust Sec to help them. Guide them if they need directions, take them to medbay if they are too injured to get there. Take their concerns seriously. Don't abuse your power)
2. Protect the innocent (Keep the crew from getting harmed. Don't leave a man dying to chase after a perp. Repair or report dangerous conditions that might injure the crew)
3. Uphold the law (Arrest people that would harm the crew, or are making themselves a nuisance.)

[RAWK_LAWBSTAR]

I'm all for more excuses to arrest people, but it's far too easy for some random staff assistant to steal your baton and whoops there goes everything. If security is going to wade into more conflict it's going to need more tools to make the job attractive.

[Vunterslaush]

How about giving the riot launcher net ammo? Its' non-lethal, and a great tool for slowing down criminals. Plus who wouldn't want a net gun?

[BaneOfGiygas]

I'm all for more excuses to arrest people, but it's far too easy for some random staff assistant to steal your baton and whoops there goes everything. If security is going to wade into more conflict it's going to need more tools to make the job attractive.

Also this. Giving security more reasons to arrest people means that there will be more arrests. More arrests usually means that there will be more crew retaliation to these arrests. It's just the general pattern to things; the more arrests security makes, the more public exposure they'll have and the more open they'll end up making themselves to interference by enterprising greytiders.

How about giving the riot launcher net ammo? Its' non-lethal, and a great tool for slowing down criminals. Plus who wouldn't want a net gun?

Yes, this is good. Furthermore, I am all for giving the riot launcher an actual purpose besides locking up everyone's clients for ten seconds.

[Mofleaker]

I don't really see what this is trying to fix. When I'm security I constantly have my hands full. The station is a mad house as it is, and the last thing we need is people getting arrested for completely arbitrary reasons.

[BaneOfGiygas]

I don't really see what this is trying to fix.

Have you ever played a round where literally no one signed up as a Security Officer?

That's what this is trying to fix. Security Officers have this aura of constantly being no-nonsense super angry policemen constantly all of the time in the eyes of many, and whether or not you believe that it's actually true, this sort of clashes with the preferences of many players, resulting in very few people actually choosing the position in an unfortunately large number of cases. So, in essence, this is an attempt to inject a bit of fun into the security department and help them fit in a bit more with the wackiness of Goonstation.

[Mofleaker]

Doing the exact same thing but for nonsense reasons isn't going to make it any more fun.

[Ed Venture]

Having Security arrest people for silly things may seem fun on paper but in the game it is going to make people lash out on security more. Arresting people for things like tomatoes seems silly enough but having sec arrest people for dumb reasons is shit. Besides Security is not meant to be fun, It's soul crushing, and I don't like the idea of real "space laws" I like it better when people had to use common sense when playing security so the ones who are stupid and abuse their power are weeded out fast.

Doing the exact same thing but for nonsense reasons isn't going to make it any more fun.

I'm all for more excuses to arrest people, but it's far too easy for some random staff assistant to steal your baton and whoops there goes everything. If security is going to wade into more conflict it's going to need more tools to make the job attractive.

Also this. Giving security more reasons to arrest people means that there will be more arrests. More arrests usually means that there will be more crew retaliation to these arrests. It's just the general pattern to things; the more arrests security makes, the more public exposure they'll have and the more open they'll end up making themselves to interference by enterprising greytiders.

Pretty much I have to say about this. I see you want to bring fun to security but this is just going to bring more heartache to the people playing security then anything else

Suggested default Sec laws. Obviously it's more of a guideline than a strict set of rules. The captain could always make an anti-tomato law after getting the clown throws one at them and toss out all the rest, or just plain old dirty cops.

1. Serve the public trust (Set a good image. Make it so people can trust Sec to help them. Guide them if they need directions, take them to medbay if they are too injured to get there. Take their concerns seriously. Don't abuse your power)
2. Protect the innocent (Keep the crew from getting harmed. Don't leave a man dying to chase after a perp. Repair or report dangerous conditions that might injure the crew)
3. Uphold the law (Arrest people that would harm the crew, or are making themselves a nuisance.)

Things like this should be common sense after a couple rounds of playing security.

[Ed Venture]

A lot of arguments revolve around either 'Nobody cares' or 'People will abuse it'. Not sure we should really have half of the stuff we do if that's the case. It's unfortunate that those are the only two scenarios that can come out of Security chases and willful disregard for the law.

But alright, fair enough. I can respect the community's opinion that it may not be as good of an idea as it sounded in my head.

I think the issue isn't that it's A: "nobody cares" or B: "people will abuse it"
If nobody cares, no harms done in adding it.
If people will abuse it, weed out the shit that does.

The issue isn't A and B alone, but both. It's both that makes this issue iffy. I understand that security should be made more fun and giving them randomized laws but I feel like that randomization undermines security by some sec officers ignoring it and then trying to protect the crew while others are stepping on their toes by following the laws. It'd make an unnecessary hostility between officers, and honestly there should be more a drive to make security work together, not apart. I'd like to see more spy tools and ways of communication like wanted posters. I find it hard to back this idea.

Also just want to add that Sundance is 100% right on this.

[Heiraphont]

I've sort of lost interest in the idea, myself. I think hman put it best in the IRC: the crew just really wants to be left alone. The initial idea was deriving fun out of police chases, prison escapes, ticketing, etc. But I think all it will do is force the crew to scream 'Shitcurity' every ten seconds because their chemistry experiments and weed growing are being interrupted.

I appreciate that Haine and Marq supported this enough to exhume it from the grave, but ultimately I don't want to introduce any ideas that will ruin the general player's experience of the server. Best to tuck this one back underground.