Detectives, their gun, and supercopping.

[Dr_Bee]

Also, to defend the gun, the Detective job is of course a gumshoe, Casa Blanca style guy. He doesn't use any fancy space man weaponry, he keeps his trusty big iron with him at all times. I'll admit, the amount of lethal ammo available to him is a bit high, 4 reloads per machine with a total of 4 machines I can think of off the top of my head. However, there is no reason to remove the gun itself or stun ammo for that matter.

I am not suggesting removing the gun, just putting the lethal ammo in the armory with the rest of sec's more lethal gear. also I would argue that the detective's job is to solve crimes after they happen and not prevent them like a sec officer does. a detective should be more like a forensic specialist in real life than a beat cop.

[UrsulaMejor]

dr_bee, putting the lethal ammo in the armory makes no sense because the detective is not security, so why would his ammo be in their armory?

detective has been a separate entity from security since at LEAST donut 2, evidenced by him initially not being given the ability to use their equipment (no sec implant), having a separate office, and him STILL not having access to their armory (not the hos armory, the regular one)

his office moved further away from sec just recently to emphasize this point.

the detective is a gimmick job meant to "investigate" crimes and occasionally arrest criminals if security is slacking. he is not intended to be a sec officer + cool gun. honestly, I'd support him losing security access

[DyssalC]

Also, to defend the gun, the Detective job is of course a gumshoe, Casa Blanca style guy. He doesn't use any fancy space man weaponry, he keeps his trusty big iron with him at all times. I'll admit, the amount of lethal ammo available to him is a bit high, 4 reloads per machine with a total of 4 machines I can think of off the top of my head. However, there is no reason to remove the gun itself or stun ammo for that matter.

I am not suggesting removing the gun, just putting the lethal ammo in the armory with the rest of sec's more lethal gear. also I would argue that the detective's job is to solve crimes after they happen and not prevent them like a sec officer does. a detective should be more like a forensic specialist in real life than a beat cop.

Okay, but.

If a crime happens, you investigate the crime, and this ultimately leads to you discovering and confronting the perpetrator, how do you proceed?

I mean, the purpose of investigating a crime is to ultimately catch whoever did it.

Perhaps you have sec with you when you go to investigate. But why is it so bad that you just go do it yourself? I mean, you should always have backup, but sometimes all of sec is dead and somebody needs to do SOMETHING.

[Walrus]

walrus, the detective has never been security. he's always been a PI type detective. the fact no one plays him this was is a fault in his design

Maybe if enough people keep saying this it will eventually be true, but until then:


Contents of Detective's office: Security doors, security locker, security computer, security records, security intercom, handheld security camera, sectech. The Detective himself spawns with a security headset, a security pda, and a red (security dept) ID.
Sure looks like the gear/office of a third party that is a distinct entity from security!!!

Once again, pulling something out of your ass does not constitute as truth.

detective has been a separate entity from security since at LEAST donut 2...

...his office moved further away from sec just recently to emphasize this point.

His office was physically separated from the sec office/brig before donut 2, the proximity of his office to the sec office isn't sign that he wasn't part of sec.

evidenced by him initially not being given the ability to use their equipment (no sec implant), having a separate office, and him STILL not having access to their armory (not the hos armory, the regular one)

That makes perfect sense because the sec office/locker and the equipment inside is meant to be used by the sec officers and not the detective in the first place. The detective has his own locker (just like the HoS) because he is not a sec officer. The detective also has a separate office (just like the HoS) because he is not a sec officer. The sec office and equipment inside is meant for sec officers, not the detective (or the HoS).

[UrsulaMejor]

Once again, pulling something out of your ass does not constitute as truth.

vOv except this is how it's always been, so it's not being pulled out of my ass. countless times, admins and coders and players alike have all acknowledged detective as a separate entity from security; security being the security officers and HoS.

There's security (jobs associated with the law) and there's security (jobs associated with arresting people and enforcing the law, I.e officers and the HoS), man. by the wiki definition, the Lawyer was also part of the first class called "security". are you saying they were also part of the second class? of course not. the Lawyer is part of the "security" section of the wiki but he's not "security" as we are using it. he's not a part of the team, he's not supposed to go around enforcing the law, and even though he's got access to the area and used to have an office in direct proximity to the main sec lounge, he's not security.

what I'm saying is that the detective is as much security, as we are using the term in this thread, as the Lawyer was. the detective is a gimmick job fit investigating crimes, the Lawyer was a gimmick job for representing criminals in court. this have them red ids and nice pdas and security headsets and an office and access to the cells, and this got them sorted under the "security" tab on the wiki, but remember that the wiki is updated and maintained by players, not the admins, and it's not uncommon for it to be wrong or for it to represent minority opinion.

if you want to foreplay the detective as part of the sec team proper, that's your prerogative. but you should recognize that you're the minority opinion here (and either way, this IS a role play centric job and this IS both opinionj and that your constant "pulling out of ass" accusations and flippant attitude are unwarranted.

[UrsulaMejor]

sorry for double post, but "foreplay" was supposed to be "role play"

my phone does not recognize role play as a word and auto corrected

[Berrik]

The detective exists for a reason other than being eaten by a changeling 15 minutes into the round?

[Dauntasa]

I have literally never seen this happen in all the times I've played HoS. I've seen a detective shoot someone to death like 3 times ever and 2 of those were changelings, and the last one was rampaging and murdering everyone.

[APARTHEID]

A detective without a .38 should report to the diner to do shots with other disgraced ex-Security personnel, Shitty Bill.

[Sundance]

Things I agree with:
+The stun rounds making a different noise
It would be a sure sign that the detective is being shit. Make them sound more muffled or rubber sounding. "BOOOINNNG"

+The detective spawning with less ammo.
Holy shit, the det has far too much ammo. He's not meant to be fucking rambo. There shouldn't be .38 speedloaders in the security vendors.
The box of ammo he starts off with should be just fine.

+Detective being a separate entity from security
I agree the det should be far more individual. Remove security access, but leave the sec headset. Remove the sec vendor. Give the detective 2 pairs of cuffs.
Optional: Give the detective bridge access, and make the door in the interrogation room detective access. That way, he can get into security if he really needs to, but it would be at the caveat that it'll be for interrogation.
If security dont want to take someone off the detectives hands whom he's arrested, then that's their prerogative. The traitor of the station in the hands of a drunk man with a pistol, sec (and the traitor for that matter) should not be surprised if that traitor winds up dead on their doorstep.

[Berrik]

Move the interrogation room to be part of the detective's office, and add a brig chute there.

[BaneOfGiygas]

I should clarify that just because the detective is a separate entity from the security officers does not discount him from being part of the security team. I sometimes take over as pseudo-sec as a Captain or other head position, because while heads are not and never will be technical security officers and consequentially don't have the same sway, they still have the common goal of not letting everyone get murdered. It's sort of a similar case with the detective. This common purpose and goal of preventing murders means that, as simple consequence, they should be able to work together.

Should the detective have the same sway and overall level of authority? No.

But should the detective be able to cooperate with the security team instead of running around doing his own thing independently of them? Yes.

[Frank_Stein]

The Detective is security, it's just that the intended focus is that you're supposed to be the the flavorful investigative branch of it rather than the enforcement.

But that is beside the point. In any given round you don't know who will be playing what roles. That's why Security has forensic scanners in their PDAs as well as one in the room. It's overlap in case there's no detective.

Which is why I think taking away the Detective's Sec access is a bad idea. What are you supposed to do if there's a Detective but no Sec? There's got to be some flexibility in the roles.

[DyssalC]

+The detective spawning with less ammo.
Holy shit, the det has far too much ammo. He's not meant to be fucking rambo. There shouldn't be .38 speedloaders in the security vendors.
The box of ammo he starts off with should be just fine.

+Detective being a separate entity from security
I agree the det should be far more individual. Remove security access, but leave the sec headset. Remove the sec vendor. Give the detective 2 pairs of cuffs.

None of that makes sense. He can't not be sec but have sec gear. Also, do not take away his sec access. It's good enough that he can't access the sec equipment.

Yes, detectives have an issue with not investigating. However, the way to get him to do more investigating is NOT to make it really hard for him to do his job. If he arrests someone but has no sec access, what does he do? Just carry them around for a while? Oh, you say hand him over to sec? So what? The difference is now he has to ask a sec officer to brig the guy? So essentially just adding a middle-man is your fix? Amazing. This solves nothing. I feel people are trying to fix shitty players by making the job more difficult, which is not the fix.

It REALLY seems like everybody is making a mountain out of a molehill with this. Like, ya, some detectives don't investigate. And some MD's don't heal you. And some geneticists don't clone you. And some sec officers don't make an effort to fight crime. And some captains don't try to protect the disk. And some HoPs don't help people at customs. And some engineers don't even bother repairing hull breaches. This happens because that specific person is just bad, not because the job is wrongly equipped.

I'm perfectly fine with giving the detective limited lethal ammo, or again hiding it behind hacked sec dispensers, however limiting non-lethal ammo would be a poor-choice as that's too severe of a nerf.

[Cogwerks]

I'll toss a different noise onto stun rounds soon.