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PVE Gameplay overhaul for Research, Mining, Engineering V1
#1
Version 1.1

Preamble

You can divide gameplay in an open game into two components: PVE (player versus environment) and PVP (player versus player). Currently, SS13 is dominated by PVP gameplay in pretty much all the modes. PVE gameplay is woefully unengaging and non-threatening. Thus, players tend to turn on each other. This has led to the fortification of each department (although, to some degree it is surprising that within a department people still remain civil to each other) and a vast expansion in combat options to cater to the gameplay style people have shifted to. Amusingly, this has led to further weakening of some PVE portions of the game (the singularity reactor core essentially runs itself after being onlined, the station atmospherics system is self-running, most injuries can be fixed in seconds with a first aid kit, etc.). Even in modes without an obvious antagonist, someone becomes an antagonist (naturally or through admin appointment, etc.) and general combat chaos ensues. There are a few issues with this. The first is that anyone who isn't an antagonist is somewhat screwed for stuff to do. Second, combat in SS13 (partly as a consequence of being in BYOND on servers with 70+ people) is not very advanced and pretty much boils down to who gets the stun off first. Third, the station is always on high alert so antagonists get to element of surprise.

In between my original development of SS13 and now, I have a played a fair bit of World of Warcraft, namely doing PVE raiding. The experience there is very enjoyable. you have 10-25 people banding together to accomplish a shared goal (kill the boss) in order to get some rewards (better gear in WoW). People specialize themselves into different roles (DPS/damage dealer, healer, tank, raid leader, etc.) and in general actually work together and cooperate. It is a highly enjoyable experience.

This post will outline a plan to reinvigorate PVE content in SS13.

Overview

The role of Space Station 13 is to extract, analyze, research, and develop novel materials found in the space it is situated in. Thus, players will then be rewarded for accomplishing these goals through multiple new gameplay avenues. Mining would find raw ores and send them to the main station processing. The main station then processes them to an acceptable purity, tags them, and then sends them along on the QM shuttle. The main station then gets more budget and points. The budget can be used by QM to procure more/replacement supplies for the the station. The points are simply tallied until the end of the round. At the end of the round, all crew members get a share of the points depending on role (and other factors) appended to their persistent scorecard (for bragging rights and eventually other rewards). Thus, the main station (science mostly) is busy running the processing for the materials gathered by mining. There are also plans to add in-station uses for the developed materials so the staff is forced to trade-off getting points/cash for improving the station in other ways. Security is eventually brought into the mix as an alternative raw material extraction source to mining (although for different classes of materials). Through away missions, security can go off and secure artifacts and stuff that similarly can be returned to the science team for processing and eventually sale.

However, to keep things interesting and add difficulty/competition, the round has to get harder as it goes on and the station racks up more points. Currently, events happen somewhat at random. Instead event frequency and intensity will be tied to the station's current score and round length. Thus, as the round goes on and players accomplish more research, more and more disastrous things happen to the station. There are plans to iterate on the design of the events so that the station has a more reasonable chance of anticipating and responding to them. The biggest change here is to give engineering something to do. The station will be given a positional, high-power shield system that engineering is charged with maintaining.

Example Event Series - Revamped Meteor Waves

The station will have some meteor detection dishes installed and some meteor detection satellites have been placed into orbit as well. These are designed to give the engineering staff advanced warning of the intensity and direction of meteor strikes coming to the station. This will give engineering staff a chance to fully charge up the shields and divert power to areas that are most in need of protection. However, these devices are not invincible so as the round progresses it is likely meteors will take out parts of the system thus limiting the amount of advance warning granted to station engineers (until the devices are repaired). It is also planned for the ore processing and advanced research required earlier on to require a large amount of power. Thus, command staff will need to make careful decisions on where to spend their power budget.

Eventually, the station may be outfitted with a few defensive laser batteries. These would allow the engineers/security to proactively spend some power to wear down encroaching meteor waves or, in some cases, shoot down invaders. I also plan to revamp singularity management. Currently, after starting it up, it pretty much runs itself. There is clearly plenty of opportunity to make a mini puzzle game with the particle accelerator. The engineering crew would have access to various particle additives and various mechanisms for injecting them into various parts of the singularity. The engineers would then, over the course of a round, have to manipulate particle flows to the singularity in order to maximize power output.

There are a few ways this stuff can tieback with science. Some of the new materials may be used to build super-strong walls (expect stock reinforced walls to be nerfed). Others may be atomized and injected into the singularity reactor core in order to modify power output. Alternatively, they could be injected into the shield system in order to improve. Specifically here, I envision a chemical that, when injected into the shield and provided a minimum amount of power, makes a nearly invulnerable shield but at extensive damage to the shield emission subsystem. Thus, the station gains a few seconds (minutes?) of invulnerability to that area with the tradeoff of completely losing shields there once the effect ends (until extensive repairs are done).

Mining Adjustments

This is still a work in progress. However, expect actual mining of tiles to take a fair bit of time. To keep things interesting, ore types and locations would be randomized between rounds. However, the mining station will have access to various surveying equipment that can be used to look for desired new materials. Again, there is plenty of opportunity with mining for the materials developed by science to improve mining (more durable equipment, faster mining, mining lasers, etc.). In fact, there is clear opportunity for a 'tech tree' in mining where some ores cannot be reliably extracted without using new devices developed by the science team.

Also, finally, all the violent tendencies of chemistry in producing explosives can be harnessed. Rather than simply making weapons that just sit there. The explosives and weapons now have a directed use: send them to mining or security so they can be used to get more stuff which we can then use to make even neater stuff.

Possible Perks/Rewards

'Personal items' will be unlocked for players after achieving certain milestones. (Think of, for example, a hat that you spawn with in place of your stock clothing.)
Access to new scenarios/away missions for crews where members have completed previous challenges is another possible unlock. This would allow some sort of progression between rounds.
While I imagine this will be initially unpopular, granting job preference to people who have past records of doing well is very tempting.

Miscellany

I am still trying to think of ways to detect when round progress has stagnated and pressure/force the round to end in those situations. This is basically to prevent people from dawdling at round start and ensure people cannot hang on to a clearly lost round for too long trying to wrack up points/rewards at the last minute. (This is, of course, OK for a very short bit of time similar to how when 1 person tries kill a boss with the rest of the raid dead. They get a few seconds to whack at it but not much longer.)
Also, ideas for good events, new materials, research paths, and away missions that all tie into these general ideas are also desirable.
Medical was not discussed but there is plenty of play where they try to use the new materials to develop 'buffs' in the form of organic enhancements, superhuman mutations etc. Remember though, that restraint is required here such that the best rewards have to be hard/dangerous to unlock and still contain drawbacks.
#2
i like the whole idea of encouraging people to do their jobs and stuff, but I dont like the idea of giving them perks and rewards. There are so many different ways to play this game, I dont think a person should be rewarded for choosing one way to play the game over other ways simply because of perks.
#3
ugh fuck pve in this game this isn't a fukken rpg this is space men in space beating each other up. critters are only in this game for flavor or for making certain areas harder to access.

and I like the way fighting works. It makes it really tense when you scramble around trying to stun the person first.
#4
Klayboxx Wrote:and I like the way fighting works. It makes it really tense when you scramble around trying to stun the person first.
Imagine something as simple as X raises the mechanical toolbox above his head popping up in chat, giving you time to react before someome robusts you with an object their nerd arms can barely lift.
#5
So is this thread an announcement of changes being made, or is it just ideas regarding how the game could be changed?
#6
FrontlineAcrobat4 Wrote:So is this thread an announcement of changes being made, or is it just ideas regarding how the game could be changed?

It is a Request For Comment. The changes are going to be made in some revision/branch/codebase contingent on ease/interest but it is a more open question which one.
#7
These ideas aren't exactly bad per se, but I don't like them. Let me step through this with you:

The first thing you mentioned in your overview, the point system. This is a bad idea for basically the reason that Frontline said. You are trying to encourage one play style over another, and while I have to admit I like an idea of encouraging players to work for the good of the station, an arbitrary point system is not the way to do it.

I'm going to ignore your idea about changing the singularity simply because that will be done away with when we switch to Cogmap and we will use the nuclear reactor.

I'm going to say this right now, the changing of the way meteor shower's work is asking for a shitload of new things for a very infrequent event. It sounds like you're asking for a whole new type of meteor shield that is incorporated into the station like something off Star Trek. And you're asking for laser guns that should be able to fend off the meteors

Your ideas on how to fix mining are vague and aren't really saying anything as far as I can tell. Mining currently has a fine method to create fantastic items like RIG Suits, mechanized boots, and laser drills. As mining stands apart from the rest of the station, I find it unnecessary to give them so much more stuff to create. The sentiment behind having science send things to mining to help them is good, but as I mentioned before, it is useless with mining in particular. Having more inter-department interaction would be good, but I suppose doing what you said wouldn't exactly be a hindrance, only pointless because it involves very few members of the crew.

Perks and rewards systems are dumb. This would quickly become a way to make some players feel superior to others for no good reason. And yeah, you'll say we already do that with our HoSes. But I'd generally think that most HoSes aren't too arrogant about it.

Everything you say seems to be shrouded in ambiguity and it sounds like you have an idea that it will be easy to make. But your ideas aren't exactly bad in and of themselves, they are just bad for this particular server IMO. I feel like they would be very well received on a heavy RP server or one that plays extended all the time.
#8
Would people really do all of this? A great deal of this sounds very time and attention consuming. While I appreciate that jobs are boring and the station basically running itself isn't enormously exciting, let's face it, 9/10 times the round's antagonists are going to drag attention away from all the jobs.

Now, you can make the argument that this is because the jobs right now are boring and people would much rather get in a fight/watch fights, but who would want to play block-the-meteors or manage-the-engine when chat is buzzing about the guy running around with a cyalume? Not only that, but making so many jobs vital to the station's continued function means that if anybody important goes braindead, or if there's not enough people to fill the positions, or if a traitor kills half of them, the station is going to be utterly ruined.

Actually, now that I think about this a little, this feels more like a pure PvE style version of the game. As in, this could work only if antags were removed and the whole crew just had to focus on staying alive against endless waves of horrible shit coming at them. This would work better on a heavy RP server, like kyle said.

And on a more personal note, I absolutely love the way combat and the game on Goonstation works right now. Combat is nice and tense, and the jobs are chill as hell and require very little personal investment.

Nightgunner5 Wrote:Imagine something as simple as X raises the mechanical toolbox above his head popping up in chat, giving you time to react before someome robusts you with an object their nerd arms can barely lift.

If you're paying any attention it should be blatantly obvious most of the time if a guy is planning on beating you down. We don't need messages to warn you too, that's goddamn easy mode :ugeek:
#9
Exadv1 Wrote:
FrontlineAcrobat4 Wrote:So is this thread an announcement of changes being made, or is it just ideas regarding how the game could be changed?

It is a Request For Comment. The changes are going to be made in some revision/branch/codebase contingent on ease/interest but it is a more open question which one.
ok cool.
#10
I don't play ss13 for any of the reasons this new, proposed system assumes in the way its set up.

this new system would probably drive me to quit.
#11
WARNING: Fucking huge post incoming. See a tl;dr at the bottom.

I really like all of the ideas you just gave out, but I don't imagine many others do (as seen above). I think this would best be done if Goonstation ran another server with this new PvE mode and G3 and G4 running the regular "secret/mixed" PvP rotation.

This would be a great way to bring a third server back if we have the hardware for it, because this is a pretty big and bold new step for SS13 as far as having actual modes. Let's face it: The modes in SS13 don't vary a whole lot or affect people a whole lot. You might have a changeling running around killing people, or a vampire, or a traitor; but in the end it's just another player killing people for one reason or another.

I'm assuming this is a new "mode" that would be made, that would run on a separate server as the "mixed" mode.

About job preference. I fully support giving better* players preference over worse** players in selecting jobs, as long as there's still a chance at the worse** player being selected. Give the better* player a 10-15% increase in the likelihood of being selected, maybe.
* Player with more "points" or "experience" at the job
** Player with less "points" or "experience" at the job



About away missions. I'm going to be totally honest: It sounds fucking badass. A group of 4-5 guys in red suits being all tactical trying to navigate their way through an abandoned station or dangerous planet in search of an ancient artifact that would bolster the Science Team's efforts back at the main station? Count me in. The most fun I've ever had in SS13 was clearing out an old station with a few other guys, fighting off zombies with our eguns and AKs. It's great.

About general mode mechanics. First off: No antagonists. The whole point is for the crew to work together, and that's not going to happen if they're nervous that their coworker is going to bash their head in when they turn around. Plain and simple. Second: A whole new station layout might be needed. One that's economic and efficient; one that players will have a chance to survive in.

About the mode. It was mentioned above that "all this for a better meteor mode is a lot of work for little payoff." I interpreted this as not being a "meteor mode, but rather a whole new mode where a meteor shower hits, or a radiation wave, or an old station is on a collision course, or there's solar flares going on, or we're approaching a black hole, or a Gamma Ray Burst is coming right for us and if we don't dodge right the fuck now we're all dead. You see the point. It's like a "disaster" mode except there's a variation of disasters that can happen, and as Exadv1 said above they would happen more frequently as the round progresses. So every single round the meteor shield would be used, and every single round people might have to hide in radiation-sheltered areas to survive.

About people's reaction to such a big change. Like I said above, the reaction isn't going to be all that good. Many people who play SS13 just aren't appealed by the "work together, succeed together, die together" mentality this new mode would be bringing. But that's not to say this new mode doesn't appeal to anyone, not at all! This sounds and feels like a big step in the right direction for SS13 as a whole, to me at least. I think that the best way to do this, and I cannot stress this enough, is to bring back G5/dave running this new mode 24/7. We will lose players if we get rid of classic SS13 and replace it with this newfangled stuff, and chances are we won't ever get them back. This new mode would make SS13 appeal to a much wider audience, one that wants to play a more traditional game mode (that's just what it feels like to me, a game mode more in tune with what most games would have) instead of paranoia in space all the time. Personally I like it and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few other people out there like me, but I think I'm in the minority here.

About cross-round progression. As long as the items are cosmetic and don't effect gameplay any more than "look that guy's jumpsuit has a big gold medal on it" then fine. But a special wrench for engineers or a new module for cyborgs or "unlocking" new jobs is a bad fit for SS13, I think. It's already hard to "pick up and play" as it is, and locking people to a few jobs or slower wall-building times or only a few chemicals only serves to increase the barrier to entry of the game. The idea of unlocking new disasters or away missions or other stuff based on how many "points" a few players have is a good one, because it adds a little "end-game" play for people who play a ton. It shouldn't be "one player has 1,000,000 points bring in the alien strike team," it should be more like "30% of this server has 1,000,000 points, so they can probably handle an alien strike team." This means that one experienced player can't completely screw over all the newbies in the server, and that the advanced challenges will only come to crews who can probably handle it.

About the proposed points system. I support it. It would be great. But usually when something like this is brought up nothing is ever done because there's just so much stuff to do in SS13. Should an engineer get points for building a lattice and a floor and adding the tile? What if he removes a tile right after to farm points? What if he has someone remove the tile for him and he sits there "boosting" for the whole round? You see the point. However, I think with this new PvE mode most of these problems are avoided. Security teams get Security Points for killing hostile mobs, completing away missions, and nabbing an artifact. Science teams get Science Points for research, development, and distribution/deployment of new technologies. Mining teams get Mining Points for how much ore they gather, and how rare/valuable that ore was. Engineering teams get Engineering Points for how much damage caused by meteors/black hole/other round-based phenomena they fix, and how many meteors were deflected, etc. The difference is, now that round has an actual goal for every department, you can very easily dish out the points to players for simply doing their jobs. Engineers can't boost because the damage they fix has to be caused by a round-based thing, and other jobs have very clear goals to fulfill to gain their points. I think you, sir, may have finally found out how to grade a player's performance in a round.

About round-ending criteria. I don't think it's really all that necessary to force a round to end. The round should end when some percentage of the crew is dead from the different disasters, or a percentage of the station is non-functioning. This means that a scientist can keep doing science until the bitter end, or a few really dedicated engineers might actually be able to pull the station out from the brink of failure. It also means that when a round ends, it ends in a fun way: With the station destroyed/overrun.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now that my dissemination of the finer points is done (what a long post, damn), some general talk. This is going to be a huge project, I hope you know. I know you're good at BYOND shit and that we have some similarly-skilled people here, but this is still a big undertaking. But it could change the face of SS13 forever, so there's a bright side to all the work.

Again, I cannot stress enough that I think this should be run on a third server to prevent playersfrom migrating to other servers en masse. I would also like to re-iterate that I think this mode would work best without player antagonists, for a host of different reasons.

This could be SS13's "big break." Or it could fail, crash, and burn miserably as our server population migrates to a new server. Or it could never even get started; shot down by people right here on the forums. But I think that this is a step in the right direction. Each crewmember starts with a tangible goal: This mode wouldn't be for dicking around. But it sounds like more fun that you can have in a round right now, so I support this chance 100%.

tl;dr: Most of this is directed at Exadv1/other people working with this project, but feel free to read this massive post and dissect it/provide feedback. Basically this should be a new mode and not put into "mixed," there should be no antagonists, and it should be run like G5/dave (separate from G3 and G4). And a ton of specific stuff that you can read above.
#12
h3half Wrote:WARNING: Fucking huge post incoming. See a tl;dr at the bottom.

I really like all of the ideas you just gave out, but I don't imagine many others do (as seen above). I think this would best be done if Goonstation ran another server with this new PvE mode and G3 and G4 running the regular "secret/mixed" PvP rotation.

This would be a great way to bring a third server back if we have the hardware for it, because this is a pretty big and bold new step for SS13 as far as having actual modes. Let's face it: The modes in SS13 don't vary a whole lot or affect people a whole lot. You might have a changeling running around killing people, or a vampire, or a traitor; but in the end it's just another player killing people for one reason or another.
[snip]

This post was helpful. I do see what you mean about the adjusted mode not having player antagonist (or, at least, traitor-like ones) although it is so tempting (since such a mode type could really grant them the element of surprise).

You were correct that the events would expand beyond just meteor waves (and I like some of your suggestions for other events a lot). That example was merely included because I merged in an idea I had way back about making meteor mode more interesting and thus already had the idea prepared in my notes. My goal there mainly is to make events that are appropriately themed, well-tuned, and survivable. Currently the random event generator is kinda a mess and doesn't really seem to deliver on the gameplay it should. On a related note, I also have some planned/theorized adjustments to atmos that would make hull breaches, gas leaks, and fires more dangerous (see: http://forums.nanotrasen.com/viewtopic. ... 05#p177353 ).

I had planned to do this on a different server similar to how /dev was done. This would also grant the ability to strip out some extraneous stuff that could not be reliably ported or no longer 'fits.'

In broad strokes to address points in other posts, part of the point is to make it so that someone dying is actually a bad thing. Otherwise, medical is a waste and has no incentive to do their job. To better act upon this goal, I think I am designing around the mode being 20-30 players on a station since above that number BYOND starts to misbehave a bit and I start running out of reasonable roles for people.

I can also reflect the crazed lunatic example a bit. Why would engineering want to rush off unarmed to go get some crazed lunatic when a meteor strike is projected to wipe out the station's south side in 2 minutes? Also, the problem with relying on PVP in SS13 is that there is always a loser in the encounter and that loser is generally required to sit-out the rest of the round. In general, for every round you have a successful rampage, you have 4+ where you just sit there doing nothing or get wiped out by a random bomb. (This is simple math because if you define a good round as taking out 4 people then necessarily those 4 people had bad rounds.)

I can see some pushback on the rewards although a vast majority of them would be cosmetic anyway (or tied to your character sheet for other people to look up later). Thus, I am surprised people hated those the most.

PS: ISaidNo had an interesting idea in IRC chat of a corollary implementation where 2+ stations compete to get the highest score. This is actually a nifty idea but I am tempted to try the single-station idea first since SS13 combat has proved exceptionally hard to balance and the direct competition might push on that too hard.
#13
Exadv1 Wrote:I also plan to revamp singularity management. Currently, after starting it up, it pretty much runs itself. There is clearly plenty of opportunity to make a mini puzzle game with the particle accelerator. The engineering crew would have access to various particle additives and various mechanisms for injecting them into various parts of the singularity. The engineers would then, over the course of a round, have to manipulate particle flows to the singularity in order to maximize power output..

I'm guessing this is targeted to the TG builds? The singularity is going away within a couple weeks, hopefully forever.

The new thermo engine will require a lot more babysitting and tweaking throughout the round. The thermo-electric engine itself is a prototype of a nuclear engine coolant system, so once the nuke reactors are properly modeled, they'll be slotted in to be the heat/pressure source in the thermal loop. Both will give more opportunities for mining, QM and science to work with engineering. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to improve that even further.

On the general note of job cooperation, with the new pod system for space exploration, getting your hands on a lot of raw materials and working with a couple of departments will be needed to get the really cool pods. I love the idea of away teams and I hope pods will be useful for those. I've been thinking about adding a dangerous planetary or moon surface z-level accessible only through telescience too as a backburner project.

e: as an aside note, Exadv1 is the dude who created ss13 so nobody really needs to warn him about how this would be a big project
#14
I definitely agree with you on the points that you bring up regarding the state of the game right now. Sounds like some cool ideas, I'd give it a shot.
#15
I don't think the giving preference to good players would work well here, some of the greatest rounds on goonstation are when there are horribly incompetent people at the helm.

Also on the 'normal' servers the regular players are terribly hostile to 'new' people and operate on a "one rule for my friends, one rule for everyone else" basis all the time - this would only further this by giving them self-justification to be so pompous and rude to people that are new to their servers.


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