New Antagonist Role: The Serial Killer

[BaneOfGiygas]

The only issue I foresee with this kind of game mode is that of difficulty. Without the gear of the traitors, the stings of the changelings, the spells of the wizards, or any other kind of fancy power whatsoever, the early game would be absolute HELL for this kind of an antagonist. Even wraiths get three chances before they're out; fleshy meatbags typically can't be counted on to have more than one. Some kind of measure to help a budding serial killer get their mojo going in relatively inconspicuous ways would help alleviate this.

I kind of disagree just because I think the strength of the early game killer is the fact that they already ARE very inconspicuous. Part of this idea is to give sec more reason to use the forensics stuff, remember. There's currently no real need to actually investigate because it's very easy to identify bad guys. I know this guy is a traitor because I found traitor equipment on him. I know this guy is a wizard because he's wearing wizard robes and shooting magic everywhere. I know this guy is a syndie because his name is "Syndie 5". I know this guy is a changeling because while I was explaining this to you he stung me and broke out of his handcuffs and now I'm tripping balls and my brain is leaking out my ears.

For the killer it's "some guy said he tried to kill him". This is a report that sec gets like 20 times every round that, if the guy doesn't have traitor items on him, turns out to be bullshit 99% of the time. "This guy tried to kill me" can mean anything from "This guy shoved me" to "This guy stabbed the shit out of me and now my blood is on the outside". Getting caught as anything else is a probably round-ender, but getting caught as an early game killer leaves sec with no proof. It's a setback, it's bad, once you get going seriously it won't be that difficult for them to pin it on you, but the round isn't over.

The problem is that you seem to underestimate how no-nonsense people can be about accusations of murder, especially if it's directed towards the same person. Some security officers will harmbaton people into oblivion as a sentence for murder and sometimes even as a sentence for possible murder. Shitty as it may be, it's a thing that happens. Serial killers would need to be EXTREMELY careful, moreso than just about any other antagonist type, because they don't have any acid spits or derringers or phee cabuus or anything else to really get them out of sticky situations beyond their cunning and ability.

You know how the wizard is notoriously difficult to play for the first time and has a reputation for dying ten minutes into the round? That's what I'm afraid might happen here, possibly even worse.

[Ali0en]

Serial killers would need abilities that get better as they perform stealth kills. These abilities would focus on not leaving evidence or providing weird ways to get the heat off of them. They would also NEED a killing method unique to their killings to differentiate between each SK.

Abilities I can think of.

SK's do not leave fingerprints (see below for explanation and idea)

SK's get new abilities the more INSANE they become. INSANITY is measured on a bar from left to right that ranges from normal crewmember to OFF YOUR ROCKER. SK's become more bloody, shoddy and creepy looking, and give weird text when examined by security and/or the detective the more insane they become. Think of it as reverse stamina; you don't want it to go up. As INSANITY increases, the SK becomes more sloppy and will leave fingerprints as well.

Reflection: SK gains 1 use of this each time the crew finds their marked victims, and it can be used at any time. Empties the INSANITY bar completely and returns them to normal, as well as cleans off all their clothes equipped.

Mark: Leaves the SK's signature mark (cut off limbs, text cut into skin, etc) on their victim. Gives moderate INSANITY.

Copycat: Let's the SK make their victim look like that of a different SK to draw heat of of them. Lowers INSANITY.

Justification: Stuns the SK where they are, causing them to mutter to themselves that they are doing the right thing. Lowers INSANITY.

Collateral Damage: Becomes available at mild INSANITY. Allows the SK to brutally make use of objects around them in unique ways to kill people (using oxygen tanks as missiles by opening them, glass lets SK slit throats). INSANITY rapidly increases.

Fingerprint Counterfeit: Allows the SK to steal peoples fingerprints from an object and then put them on something, including a person.

[atomic1fire]

SK's should be able to name themselves, like wizards.

I for one want to see someone running around calling themselves victor zsasz.

Of course this gameplay mechanic might end up too spooky for it's own good, but on the other hand you might come up with some especially hilarious killer names, like "The Cream Puff Killer", or "The Cereal Killer", or "Deranged former children show clown"

[atomic1fire]

double post, but why not use the existing tie in item system "e.g terrell wilkerson's grandma's eyepatch" but give it an interesting effect on use.

For instance "this item gives the wearer a scary looking tattoo when worn"

That sounds kind of warehouse 13y but could be fun from a improvise standpoint. Now you have a magic wrench that gets the victim drunk, use it in your serial killer gimmick.

Does it make sense? no, but it opens up options for creativity and is pretty reliant on luck.

[Owlrich]

I really did not want to comment on this thread, cause I'm a firm believer in constructive criticism and all that, but I feel compelled to anyway. I think that one can easily create this effect by just being a regular traitor (or that hardmode traitor for that matter). You can name yourself in various ways already, and the weird item mods I saw suggested seem like one should be able to construct interesting things with the existing system. I mean the creative traitors already do this, but to frame this in the context of a serial killer just seems a bit grotesque.
And also: the rules for creepiness would still be in place, but serial killers are creepy in a bad way by their very nature. It's like saying you can roleplay as a registered sex offender but don't be creepy about it! I realise that the people in the thread do not intend it in that way at all, but it seems like it would be really encouraging the kind of weird creepy behavior we try to avoid. I think that the item suggestions are interesting, but I think they can be implemented independently without the creation of a new traitor class. And since one is free to be a serial killer as a traitor already, you can use various items and fulfil this role without being pigeonholed into it. That's just my two cents and I don't mean to minimise anyone's ideas.

[atomic1fire]

Eh, I've seen some legit creepy traitors before, but that's what traitor is for.

As long as it isn't overtly sexual (like some kind of forced ERP which would just be going overboard), I don't really see the issue with having a serial killer antagonist.

I've seen traitors kill errybody, remove their brains, and then leave the bodies in a pile in robotics for armies of death borgs or shoved into the nearest disposal unit, killing anyone who might be a witness.

One time I was forcefully held hostage by a traitor who pretended to be insane, debating whether or not they should kill me, then killing me anyway. They also made me answer questions and I actually did adminhelp it. Turns out they were legit and creepy legit.

I think the only reason not to have an SK is if it's too close to normal traitor, which by adding a primary role for the detective and security by reading creepy letters and observing evidence, it really isn't. If anything it's a bit more Roleplay heavy then most goon antagonist, because you're basically playing murder chess with security, trying to get them to chase you but not catch you until everybody dies.

[LinkDaWolf]

i think the "creepy" factor owlrich was talking about was more in line with... like... people rping as some of the ACTUAL serial killers that existed or doing similar things as them. some of those people did some real creepy shit that wouldn't fly in ss13. of course, the creepy rule would still apply to SK traitors so as long as that's made clear it shouldn't be a problem

i like the idea of unique powers and stuff for the SK though, and the idea to make special items/weapons. it would be cool if they had like, a randomly generated MO that they could choose to follow. like,

Your MO: Medical doctors
Your MO: People with colorful hair
Your MO: Men without beards
Your MO: People with dumb names

[DyssalC]

Your MO: People with dumb names

Whole station becomes fair game.

To talk on creepiness, because it has been brought up, ya, some infamous serial killers did weird sex things, however I feel most people who play goon know well enough that (if it became a thing) being an SK doesn't just mean those rules about creepy things suddenly stops applying.

Also because it was brought up, hardmode traitor and SK are only similar ideas from the base post. Not to be rude to the person who started the thread, but I feel all the ideas that have been suggested AFTER the first one are the real SK ideas, with themes and MO's.

Especially neat if your MO corresponded with what you got, like a "Surgeon" MO that required you to remove limbs, and gave you a special scalpel with a good chance of lopping of a limb, or a "Butcher" MO that required you to turn victims into food and gives you a cleaver that meatifies dead bodies. Things like that.

[Owlrich]

I do appreciate that, but I think maybe a more salient point is why do you need to be *required* to be a butcher and what is stopping traitors from sending letters to security as it is? Again with the addition of the most interesting items that have been suggested by some of the posters, I don't understand why there needs to be a whole other separate class of antagonist in order to implement this. Something like killing people with dumb names can just be added into the rotation as an optional traitor objective. I think that to justify another type of antagonist, the role should result in a significantly different type of gameplay both for the traitor and the people fighting him or her, such as with the wraith or blob, which require very different tactics from any other type of antagonist. As it is, most traitors are pretty much serial killers already (especially if someone has that butcher knife, oof that thing is powerful), and they have the leeway to send mysterious messages and mail bodyparts to security. I'm not trying to be a pill, I just think that what people are envisioning is already achievable and maybe one should focus on paring down "must-have" items instead.

[Dauntasa]

I don't really think "this idea doesn't add anything because it's about killing people and traitors can already kill people" makes any sense because fundamentally that's what every type of bad guy in this game boils down to

[Dauntasa]

also the whole "I found some kind of tangential link between this idea and something sexual so we can never use it" thing is still dumb, has always been dumb, and will never stop being dumb

[Frank_Stein]

I do appreciate that, but I think maybe a more salient point is why do you need to be *required* to be a butcher and what is stopping traitors from sending letters to security as it is? Again with the addition of the most interesting items that have been suggested by some of the posters, I don't understand why there needs to be a whole other separate class of antagonist in order to implement this. Something like killing people with dumb names can just be added into the rotation as an optional traitor objective. I think that to justify another type of antagonist, the role should result in a significantly different type of gameplay both for the traitor and the people fighting him or her, such as with the wraith or blob, which require very different tactics from any other type of antagonist. As it is, most traitors are pretty much serial killers already (especially if someone has that butcher knife, oof that thing is powerful), and they have the leeway to send mysterious messages and mail bodyparts to security. I'm not trying to be a pill, I just think that what people are envisioning is already achievable and maybe one should focus on paring down "must-have" items instead.

I agree. Rather than it being a whole other class of antagonist, maybe just have a slasher kit as a spawnable traitor item. Includes a slightly randomized weapon, disguise, and some other roleplay junk.

[BaneOfGiygas]

To elaborate on Owlrich's point a bit more: Antagonists fall under different types of spheres and playstyles, and the way that the crew is intended to respond can be separated into two modes of operation: Investigation and action. The investigation/action relationship is a sliding scale. Wizards and blobs, for instance, are at the far "action" end: The challenge is not in figuring out who or where the antagonist is, but in figuring out how to kill the bastard. Changelings, meanwhile, are (probably intended to be) on the far "investigation" end. Due to their sneakiness and penchant for misdirection, a lot of the challenge in dealing with a changeling is more about figuring out who the changeling is.

Traitors are a mixed bag, and can go in varying spots on that scale. Your rampaging saberguys are further on the "action" end, your sneaky emaggers are on the "investigation" end. That's because, aside from their already-randomized and not even strictly necessary objectives, it is impossible to determine the motivation of a traitor before their plan is underway, and sometimes not even then. But with the other antagonists, it's easy. Syndies want the fukken disk, wizards want to murder everyone, blobs want to consume the station, wraiths want to cause chaos. You always have a general idea of what you're in for.

Unpredictability is what makes traitors traitors, and it's why they're the most common antagonist type. To bring this back around to the original point: If new antagonist types are to be introduced, they need to stand out from the standard traitor rounds in some manner, typically through a wildly different game pace or overall playstyle. As cool of an idea as this serial killer thing sounds, it just seems like a traitor with some pieces swapped out.

[Owlrich]

Yes, that's a good way of putting it, thank you. I think all the effort put forward into creating and balancing the blob is worthwhile because it results in a whole other style of gameplay, where the station has to cooperate to take down a large obvious foe. Same goes for the wraith, but it is harder to pin down, so the main effort is in detection and it can happen at any part of the station unexpectedly. In this case, is it really worth the effort for what is essentially guided role-play? That was basically my thought on the matter.