Traitor Telecrystal Rework\Buffs

[salix_catus]

These changes would be especially more relevant with cogmap 2. Bigger station requires more resources available to traitors.

[APARTHEID]

After all of this time, I am still surprised that there is no way to fix any damage caused by an e-mag. The damn thing is just about the most powerful item a traitor can carry around; what's keeping the HoS from tearing out Beepsky's malfunctioning proximity sensor?

[BaneOfGiygas]

Longpost Incoming

I'm going to post the results of the weapon tests I mentioned earlier to help give a sense of how dangerous all of the different weapons are. Note that these tests were done on unarmored monkeys, I haven't tested all of the weapons yet, and subsequent changes may make results not quite as wholly accurate. I'll also be including non-traitor weapons for the sake of comparison.

The "effective range" is the range at which the projectile maintains maximum velocity and therefore deals maximum damage.

Energy Gun (Laser Setting)
Effective range: 1-4
Max range: 1-15 tiles for laser
Laser damage at maximum velocity: 60 burn
Rate of decrease: ~5 damage per tile

Rubber Shotgun Bullets
Effective range: 1-3 tiles
Max range: 1-8 tiles
Damage at max velocity: 28 brute
Rate of decrease: 4 brute per tile

Cyalume Saber
Flat 60 damage per hit.

Wrestling Belt
Flat 15 damage per hit except for Throw and Drop. Drop deals 20 damage, Throw seems to vary.

Derringer
Effective range: Pointblank
Max range: 1-4 tiles
Damage at pointblank: 125 brute
Rate of decrease: ~25 damage per tile

Radbow
Max range: 1-11+ tiles
Irradiation: 20 Gy (Flat damage regardless of distance traveled. Irradiation occurs instantly.)
Irradiation at point-blank: 30 Gy

.22 Pistol
Effective range: 1-4 tiles
Max range: 1-10 tiles
Damage at max velocity: 35 brute
Rate of decrease: 5 brute per tile

Revolver
Effective range: 1-4 tiles
Max range: 1-14 tiles (13 tiles with AP rounds)
Damage at max velocity: 60 brute (50 with AP rounds)
Rate of decrease: 5 brute per tile

Detective's Revolver
Effective range: 1-4 tiles
Max range: 1-10 tiles
Damage at max velocity: 35 brute (50 with AP rounds)
Rate of decrease: 5 damage per tile

Shotgun
Effective range: 1-3 tiles
Max range: 1-6 tiles
Damage at max velocity: ~115 brute (Explosive rounds, at point blank, deal 100 brute and 35 burn, with the burn damage slowly escalating over time.)
Rate of decrease: Decrease of ~5 brute every tile for first 3 tiles, jumps to ~60 brute at 4 tiles, decrease of 20 brute for every tile afterwards

That's about it. I haven't tested the stun weapons and explosives due to the tedium and difficulty of objectively testing things like structural damage and stamina damage, but that should give everyone a good idea about how dangerous all of the different guns are.

[Dauntasa]

Unless someone unnerfed it and it isn't utterly worthless anymore I don't see why the cloak is 7 crystals when in terms of effectiveness it is now basically a novelty paperweight and when, for powerful melee weapons, the only thing an esword(the thing people aren't supposed to have with a cloak) has over a stunbaton(the thing that anyone can get with about 2-3 minutes of effort whether they're a traitor or not) is that it's faster. If you successfully bean someone with a baton they are absolutely just as dead as if you'd sworded them, you just have to take 30 seconds to steal all their shit and space them.

Stun baton has charges, doesn't make a super loud obvious sound, doesn't do as much damage as a c-saber, the stun can be negated with drugs, and is very easy to accidentally stun yourself with if you forget to turn it off before beating them or byond ignores your input.

So actually they are two very different things. Who knew?

the only difference is follow up, both do exactly the same thing: click the other person once to instantly win the fight

the follow up for the sword is clicking them again a couple more times and the follow up for the baton is dragging them to the nearest airlock but in either case once you have clicked them, you are the winner

[Pacra]

.22 should be cheaper I think, maybe 3 tcs. It's outclassed both stealth and damage-wise by the cheaper radbow, and by the fact you can't manufacture more ammo for it.

Also the radbow itself could stand to be raised to 4 tcs. It's probably one of the best value for money weapons, and this keeps it consistent at three radbows being the max a regular traitor can obtain (which is a fairly hefty supply of radbows on its own)

Tac grenades should be raised to 2, yeah. Incendiary grenades can tear a fairly decent hole in the station now and you get 2 per box.

The bowling kit should be a little cheaper I think, maybe 5 tcs.

The safari kit could stand to be 7 I think, the boomerang alone is a rampage weapon on par with a c-saber, and a 6 tc cost allows you to get two of them.

EMP grenades could be cheaper I think, 2 tcs is a little high for using them as a general utility thing and you generally only see them used to send the buddies and bots mad.

Chemicompiler's kind of an odd duck, only a few people really know how to use it to its full effectiveness and can create station-wrecking reactions with just one. Those dudes have probably overhyped it a bit, but to everyone else it's next to useless. I dunno how lowering the point cost would help with that.

Mining charge hacker definitely ought to be cheaper, the mining charges are pretty crappy. Admittedly it probably needs a boost more in function than value.

Power sink could be raised in cost I think, maybe to 5 or even 6. Depending on the round, it's very easy to shut down the entire station for something you only have to set up once.

(Oh, boosting the cost of the explosive shotgun rounds might be a good idea. So many people are doing the 'cheese x-drone/buy fifty boxes/annihilate the station' routine and it's practically uncounterable.)

Upon further reflection, I really agree with everything going on in this post. Adjusting OP.

However you seem to have neglected the fact that this allows for X+X combos. C-saber and belt, belt and spacker, of course with the exceptions of the job specific chainsaw and butcher's knife.

Also, vuvuzelas. Now, I haven't used the amped vuvuzela in a while, but was it nerfed? Was it nerfed to the point that a 2TC cost is reasonable now?

I really think the cloak should be 6 and the Spacker/Belt/Saber/Chainsaw/Butcher's Knife should be 7TC.

The .22 is already 4, and I'm fine with it being 4 if the max was increased to 12. HOWEVER, the .22 is a reasonably powerful ranged weapon. It's not god-like insta-crit damage but you don't want to find yourself on the business end of one without armor. However, now you can take a .22 and a super powerful weapon into combat and still have 2 TC leftover for some very useful support equipment, or you can take a super powerful weapon AND a revolver with 1TC to spare.

Agreed. 7/6 TC switch if we stay at 12, which I'd like it to stay at. With Grayshift's revolver/.22/etc damage list, we'll have to adjust accordingly.

If the Chemicompiler's cost is going to be lowered due to the small number of people who can get it to work properly, I think that the Power Gloves should get their cost reduced by the same logic. Not many people know how to set up the hellburn necessary for effective use of the things, and the high cost seems like even more of a turn-off.

I might keep them the same just because if you buy the gloves, your duties for it are so intensive you may use the majority of your round revolving around using them, whereas the chemicompiler, you can save your work and just memorize the reagent amounts, not the actual code.

I'd be fine with macrobombs at any price, as long as you remember to adjust their power to match.

I say keep it at 10, with 2 extra TC to do some other mischief with before you croak+explode.

I had a more radical idea on revamping telecrystal costs. Rather than one big pool of 10-12 telecrystals, divide them into tiers. You get two major telecrystals, two moderate telecrystal picks, and three minor picks.

I found this idea wonderfully new and interesting, but agree with others that it seems like it'd heavily discourage creativity even though the options for less-used spreads are in "shatter." It's not that it doesn't give you the opportunity, it's just that it sets it up in a way that will give our players (think of how most of our players think) major telecrystal FOMO at the very start instead of expanding their fully-displayed options.

The gun damage list is great info though I must say.

Things I am completely opposed to:
- Grayshift: Two picks in 'major'. Far too powerful.
- Pacra: The cloaking device in general. It's not fun for anyone. While the cloak has been nerfed hard, it still gives you the opportunity to strike first with an esword undetected, which is basically a death sentence.
- In general: Cheap emags. The swiss army knife. It does literally everything yet its value keeps floating at 'basically free'.

From cloakchat, sounds like we'll keep not having the combo, with the cloak decreased by 1 and melee increased by 1 via DyssalC's recommendation.

I understand the emag cost worries. I say, keep the ratio the same - at half total TC cost, so at 6 now.

[BaneOfGiygas]

Keeping the macrobomb at 10 lets you get a derringer with your remaining 2 for the ultimate setup in last-minute fuck yous. I like this.

[Pacra]

The OP has been edited with prices from feedback, please take a look.

I put in almost every item - note I upped poison bottles from 1 to 2, so with the pen/hypo setup, you get at least 3, then need to at least consider getting creative with reagents/poison slurries
(before our players just use radium )
instead of getting 6 and going on a huge no-effort murderspree.

Also took nubcake's recommendations in consideration but forgot to quote him - sorry about that.

Anyone have any experiences with the syringe gun? I can test it later if it's not working/applying reagents correctly...

[Berrik]

The main functionality that would make hacked mining charges better would be if you could stick them to people and have them stay stuck, instead of them just being able to walk away.

Also, more direct damage at the epicenter. Something that blows huge pieces of asteroid to bits should probably do more than just knock someone down and blow off a limb or two.

[BaneOfGiygas]

The main functionality that would make hacked mining charges better would be if you could stick them to people and have them stay stuck, instead of them just being able to walk away.

Also, more direct damage at the epicenter. Something that blows huge pieces of asteroid to bits should probably do more than just knock someone down and blow off a limb or two.

Random thought: Maybe let the hacker hack OTHER mining tools in addition to the mining charges? Smash crewmembers with power picks and power hammers, make concussive gauntlets deal even more damage, roast people with lasers drills? Kind of like a higher-price, hyper-specialized, combat-oriented emag for miners.

[DyssalC]

1. Would there by a big issue with Syndie donks being a Chef and Staff Assistant thing? I know the issue with that is it's a pretty effective healer, but on top of that it's a really powerful stimulant that synergizes quite well with the Wrasslin Belt. Would it be too much to make this a considerably more available combo?

2. I think people say the chem nades are bad because you can do most everything they can do without them, it's kind of like the beginner's tool of fucking shit up with chem.

[BaneOfGiygas]

2. I think people say the chem nades are bad because you can do most everything they can do without them, it's kind of like the beginner's tool of fucking shit up with chem.

I politely disagree. You can do everything chemnades can do without chemnades, but the main lure of chemnades is the ability to do it BETTER. You can arm a chemnade, throw it at people, and run away, which is an incredible advantage over beaker assemblies or other such setups.

[Roomba]

I think chemnades are a fine tool for those dabbling in chem warfare who don't want to deal with all the fiddly bits in setting up beaker assemblies, and 2 TCs isn't a particularly objectionable cost. I guess if you wanted to improve them maybe add one more per box or something.

[BaneOfGiygas]

Also, the fact that chemnades smash two beakers together instead of just heating one beaker lets you make use of on-mix chems like chlorine azide, CLF3, powders, even things like life or flaptonium.

[I-Sett]

note I upped poison bottles from 1 to 2, so with the pen/hypo setup, you get at least 3, then need to at least consider getting creative with reagents/poison slurries
(before our players just use radium )
instead of getting 6 and going on a huge no-effort murderspree.

I wish there was a happy middle-ground here. since about 60% of the time I get boring/slow/ineffectual poisons. I always like to get a stealth storage kit with poison bottles for stealth and management purposes. With these reworks I could get a 6 TC emag for a hypospray, a 1 tc storage and just two poison bottles with a high chance that at least one or both of them will just be cyanide or something else easy to acquire and relatively ineffectual if the victim is anywhere near a medkit. With the old system I could get have 4 poison bottles (usually about 2 useful/fun poisons like rajaijah). There has to be a happy middle-ground somewhere? Or maybe remove the crappier poisons if the cost is higher (1/6 of total TC vs 1/10th) ?

[Pacra]

Good point. A lot of the current poisons are pretty wimpy.
I'll keep it to one for now until that can get reworked as an ancillary.