Changelings

[Firepower]

So I've hated changelings for a long time but just now I've had my worst experience with them. I load in as head of security and go through my usual routine of gearing up and everything. As I return to the security office from upgrading my ID I see the changeling detective finish absorbing the other security officer. Figuring his acid was on cooldown as he had clearly just absorbed the other security officer I charge him with my taser and stun him.. Only to be acid spit immediately afterwards, so less than 5 minutes into the round the changeling has successfully killed the entire security force with basically no issues.


I understand the argument that you shouldn't fight changelings alone but let's face it, this is SS13 and people rarely care about fighting antags anymore and usually you don't even have time to call for help if you get into a fight because you have to stand still to type. Really the changeling shouldn't be able to spit someone and choke them to death before they even know what's going on, the cooldown should either be raised or the effectiveness of the acid spit should be reduced. Maybe don't let the changeling spit homing acid at people if he's stunned?

[Karmahunter]

Hey-o. I'm the security officer that got spit on. Was gearing up and two minutes in the round i got spit on. I completely agree. I've had so many issues with changelings wiping out the security force in a matter of minutes and it's a little bit silly how low the cool-down on a instant K-O is. Completely agreed. Raise the cool-down or something else to nerf them.

[Shoddy]

This used to not be a problem on donut II for some reason, security needs to be larger and their helmets need to be resistant, security isn't a threat to any baddie.

[Crumplehat]

This is especially true with the ways tasers work now. Tasers are utterly useless against changelings, since you can't put it down before it acid spits you unless you get REALLY lucky with your shots (and as with most guns, half the time you won't even see if the projectiles hit because they come out invisible or something).

HAVING SAID THAT

It's a really funhating changeling if it goes and murders all of security right at the start of the round. Sure, it's their right to do so as an antag, but it's still sorta lame and boring. Taking out the detective I get, sure; that thermal scanner is the fucking bane of a changeling's existence.

[Sundance]

I don't agree.
Changlings are probably one of the most balanced antagonists. They're not meant to be a 1 vs 1 type creature, they're meant to be taken down with at least 2 other people. It was unfortunate that your other officer got spat and absorbed, but moving into deal with the ling without any back-up at all was a bad move. You could've gotten any passerby, a clown, a staff assistant, throw him a gun and tell him there's a ling there, and back you up if shit went downhill.
I normally alert an AI via PDA, once the AI isn't some sort of sadistic lunatic that will demand that I kill the ling and will actually help me capture it by shocking/locking doors.

THAT SAID

The situation you highlighted is very typical. No security back-up means that the opportunity of having back-up that isn't a clown is minimal. Having 2 officers (Including the HoS, excluding the detective as he could potentially be an baddie) is normally average, so one dies, the other officer is quite fucked against the ling.

Officer helmets (including the ones in the lockers, and the hos beret/hat) could perhaps be buffed against a ling spit. Not block it, but reduce the stun-time to a point where the ling would probably want to sting them afterwards and drag them out a window into space.
It's less "can't spit this officer because he's wearing a helmet"
and more "I'll spit this officer when i'm more prepared"

[Firepower]

I don't agree.
Changlings are probably one of the most balanced antagonists. They're not meant to be a 1 vs 1 type creature, they're meant to be taken down with at least 2 other people. It was unfortunate that your other officer got spat and absorbed, but moving into deal with the ling without any back-up at all was a bad move. You could've gotten any passerby, a clown, a staff assistant, throw him a gun and tell him there's a ling there, and back you up if shit went downhill.
I normally alert an AI via PDA, once the AI isn't some sort of sadistic lunatic that will demand that I kill the ling and will actually help me capture it by shocking/locking doors.

THAT SAID

The situation you highlighted is very typical. No security back-up means that the opportunity of having back-up that isn't a clown is minimal. Having 2 officers (Including the HoS, excluding the detective as he could potentially be an baddie) is normally average, so one dies, the other officer is quite fucked against the ling.

Officer helmets (including the ones in the lockers, and the hos beret/hat) could perhaps be buffed against a ling spit. Not block it, but reduce the stun-time to a point where the ling would probably want to sting them afterwards and drag them out a window into space.
It's less "can't spit this officer because he's wearing a helmet"
and more "I'll spit this officer when i'm more prepared"

Even 2v1 the changeling has a pretty good chance in fights. Considering he can acid spit the first one and neurotoxin the other if he gets too close it's pretty ridiculous. You need an entire angry mob to take out a changeling basically. The acid spit's cooldown is far too low, if I catch the changeling with his pants down after he just absorbed a person I SHOULD have the upper hand on him. The changeling was super careless by just running into the security office at the start and spitting the only officer.

The changeling has some of the most insane abilities ever, they can transform to hide if they get found out, go to lesser form to escape handcuffs, spit homing acid at people even while stunned, neurotoxin people, drug people, kill people extremely fast by absorbing them, heal himself back to full health without any medical supplies, space walk. if it dies it can take over another body which effectively gives it a second chance, and lets not forget if it actually does get into a fight it can't win (which is rare these days) it can always go into horror form and pretty much fight a small army provided they aren't heavily armed with guns.

[Clarks]

The real problem is that very few people choose security, and most players have nobody for backup or to set up a plan.

We have a two tier system, supposedly to prevent hitler cops from griefing too hard the players, which are just as much hitler.
The Hos has much more access (although sec. got an upgrade) and crucially many more and stronger guns.
Players have less of an incentive to pick regular security when the hos has much more and is unavailable except to whitelisted players.

The armory could be open to every cop. Every weapon however would start in a locker.
The locker themselves would work like personal lockers, each security card can only open one gear locker per round. This prevent a single cop from hoarding, but still makes the bigger guns available to them and brings them closer to the hos.
With shotguns in play every round, they could get a nerf to 4 bullets instead of the current 8 (iirc).

The other problem is that being the hero and attacking a changeling alone is a desperate move. Heroes usually end up dead. There's no cure for this.

[Lavastage]

Lengthy Rebuttle

Problem is, the changeling is precariously balanced. Any nerf applied to it will probably make the changeling really hard, You can literally grab a welder and weld the thing to death. The changeling horror form is really tough to fight as and against unless you know what you are doing, and let's not forget the headspider. People who get headspidered usually run to med bay and get it cut out. If they can't, they will go to lengths to even gib themselves as a final "fuck you."

Honestly I think the problem is that people don't react to changelings like they should. The proportion to people knowing how to play as a changeling VS. People who know how to properly fight a changeling is in favor of the changeling player side. Usually when a changeling is announced, I just see staff assistants just go to the changeling with only a fire extinguisher in a conga line, one at a time. Just wise up and actually think about what you can do against a changeling.

[Firepower]

Lengthy Rebuttle

Problem is, the changeling is precariously balanced. Any nerf applied to it will probably make the changeling really hard, You can literally grab a welder and weld the thing to death. The changeling horror form is really tough to fight as and against unless you know what you are doing, and let's not forget the headspider. People who get headspidered usually run to med bay and get it cut out. If they can't, they will go to lengths to even gib themselves as a final "fuck you."

Honestly I think the problem is that people don't react to changelings like they should. The proportion to people knowing how to play as a changeling VS. People who know how to properly fight a changeling is in favor of the changeling player side. Usually when a changeling is announced, I just see staff assistants just go to the changeling with only a fire extinguisher in a conga line, one at a time. Just wise up and actually think about what you can do against a changeling.

The changeling should be hard to succeed with. Antags have the odds stacked against them and should require clever play, but running into the security office and absorbing the first guy you see isn't clever at all. If the changeling had a longer cooldown on his acid spit these problems wouldn't happen. I rarely see traitors succeed because it's actually difficult for them, changelings on the other hand succeed at least 50% of the time I see them play because all they need to do is find someone who's alone and drag them into a maintenance tunnel, if they get discovered they can just instantly stun and eat whoever finds them out also.

[Admiral jimbob]

hello excuse me i chased an abominable horror from beyond space and time into maintenance, and when it opened its mouth and revealed a horrible blackness born of a void beyond all things that should be, i tried to shoot it a bit, and when it lunged forward with its mortal flesh shedding to reveal an eldritch mass that sought only to consume all that was born in light, i punched it a few times and it didn't work. pls nerf

[Sundance]

Stuff

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

How about this
Fire is an abominations worst enemy, they take virtually no damage from brute, but fire hurts them, stops them from healing quickly. This is such a great addition to abominations because it makes them horrible monstrosities that you WANT to run away from.

Fire pretty much cancels out the lings speed regenerate, so why doesn't being on fire cancel out the acid spit too?
This is good because not many people have access to fire (security do if you know how) and it would encourage people to arm themselves with fire. It wouldn't be a huge nerf towards the ling, the ling still has his sting (along with any other arsenal it has), and can go abomination (in which he can spit acid) if he has enough dna.
It just means that someone who is prepared to fight a ling, will be able to, or at least will be able to defend themselves in a fire-fight against that annoying homing sludge missile.

[KikiMofo]

I just want to add that toxic spit was already nerfed. You wake up from it fast and it has a longer cooldown. I assume the reason he spat you is because he stung the officer and not toxic spat at him.

[Shoddy]

The game is too easy for antagonists now. With the multitude of bugs and tricks that can be exploited being an antagonist is easy.

Here's an example: during lag insert cash into a machine twice! Rinse and repeat until you have enough money to buy explosive shotgun rounds or something, go hijack the obsidian crown.

Direct confrontation with the supposed most well armed group on the station should be a thing avoided at all costs.

I also feel like the traitor item roster is bloated with crutch items and the tasers are fucking useless for security.

[Firepower]

I just want to add that toxic spit was already nerfed. You wake up from it fast and it has a longer cooldown. I assume the reason he spat you is because he stung the officer and not toxic spat at him.

Well considering Karmahunter was the other security officer and he posted in this thread saying he was spat at I'd say the cooldown is still too short.

[KikiMofo]

The game is too easy for antagonists now. With the multitude of bugs and tricks that can be exploited being an antagonist is easy.

Yes for people that know the game and it's tricks sure they are strong antagonists. Isn't that how games are? If you are good you are stronger. I don't see how knowing tricks and bugs means we need to nerf the roles.